Database Working Group Minutes from RIPE 48

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Database WG Draft Minutes (RIPE48)
                     RIPE48, Amsterdam 5th and 6th May 2004

A. Administrative Matters
	- scribe (Nigel Titley, FLAG Telecom + Frora)
	- list of participants
	- announcements
	- agenda
		Accepted
	- minutes
		Accepted
	- "remote participation" coordination (if needed)
		No requests
	- meeting schedule for 2005
		Thoughts on whether we will be able to manage with only
		two meetings a year. Please feed back to WW144

Outstanding Actions

43.9 	RIPE NCC 	To track outdated references to the IRRToolSet on the web 
			and correct them. 	[Complete]
45.5 	RIPE NCC 	To document proposal on organisation object and re-circulate
			on mailing list. 	[Complete]
45.6 	RIPE NCC 	To collate responses (to organisation object) and make a start 
			on implementation. 	[Complete]
46.3 	RIPE NCC 	Add reverse lookup feature for key-cert objects. 
			[Complete]
46.5 	WW 		Coordinate with RIPE NCC to prepare a document summarizing 
			basic assumptions about the use of the database. 
			Presentation at RIPE-47 by WW144. [Ongoing]
47.1 	RIPE NCC 	Set a deadline for the commencement of work on prototype 
			server code, taking into account the likely availability 
			of standards.[Ongoing, will be making announcement in a few weeks] 	 
47.2 	Randy Bush, Niall O'Reilly 	Create a short proposal on setting up an appropriate scheme 
			for a simple abuse contact (either "abuse" or "abuse-c")
                        [Covered by presentation, complete] 	 
47.3 	RIPE NCC 	Write a document properly documenting the use of the IRT 
			object for reporting abuse. [Ongoing]
47.4 	WW 		To send note to DB WG mailing list to ask how many are using 
			the DB software, and on what platform. [Done, but no response, ongoing] 	 

B. DB Operational Update (Shane K., RIPE NCC)
	Presentation on RIPE web site

	1. The Organisation object has been created and deployed
	2. DNS is now built from the database
	3. NONE authentication is now removed.

C. ERX Phase 3 (Leo V., RIPE NCC)
	Presentation on RIPE web site

	All /8 and /16s are complete. Work must now start on the /24 radioactive swamp.

D. Value "ZZ" for country: attribute (Engin G., RIPE NCC)
	Presentation on RIPE web site

	After discussion there was no real consensus for approving this proposal. The whole
	business of making country: optional needs to be raised with the Address Policy
	working group

	[AP48.1 RIPE NCC] Raise the issue of making country: optional with the Address
	POlicy working group.

E. CRISP/Joint-Whois status
   . Joint-Whois report (Shane K., RIPE NCC)
	Presentation on RIPE web site

	RIPE NCC has not done work on this, in accordance with the wishes of the DB WG
	but other RIRs have seen this as useful and work has started on it in the LACNIC
	RIR, with support from APNic who will provide the test environment.

	[AP48.2 Shane Kerr] To publish the requirements on the DB WG list.

   . report by Andrew Newton, VeriSign
	Presentation on RIPE web site

	Note: The CRISP protocol is actually called IRIS, hence the name of the presentation

	IRIS is an XML based protocol, specifically for use by registries of Internet resources
	(not just address registries). IT has a wide range of authentication mechanisms which allow
	proper authorisation. Referrals are properly handled. An prototype client, PIMMIT,
	was demonstrated. 

	Some concern was expressed over how much additional operational overhead would be
	imposed by the IRIS protocol. The response was that the overhead is not excessive.
	Additional concern was expressed over the use of XML. The response was that prototype
	clients and servers already exist, and that there are a plethora of tools available
	for processing XML. The CRISP WG has been at pains to avoid inventing new technology,
	but has largely used existing building blocks.

	Fears that underlying databases would have to be modified were also raised and placated.
	
F. support for works of art (Nigel T., FLAG TC)
   . poetry | haiku | ???
	Presentation on RIPE web site

	It was noted that without internationlisation in the character set, adoption in
	the AsiaPAC region is unlikely.

	[48.3 NT13] Proposal should be clarified and the minor issue of tech-c in the poetic-form
	object clarified.

G. irt: / abuse:                                                [60+ min]
   . proposal by Niall O'R. & Randy B.
	No Presentation, but later discussion

   . statistics by Marco H., Niall O'R. and Ulrich K.
	Presentation on RIPE web site
	
   . next steps? (WW144)
	No obvious consensus on mailing list. Suggested that the mailing list suggestion be
	implemented to run along side the existing IRT mechanism.

	Concern was expressed about the manadatory requirement for a PGP object in the
	IRT object. The CERT community seems to be of the opinion that the PGP attribute
	may be made optional.

	The issue of what the database returns is also a problem. The database should return
	an IRT object by default.

	The point was made that the vast majority of spam complaints come from tools and that
	the tool writers were amenable to using IRT.

	The real problem is to remove the number of email addresses that are returned by
	a database query and make it obvious which addresses are actually appropriate to
	receive complaints.

	Concern was expressed that if the data model was not correct, then retrieving the
	data in any meaningful form will not be possible. The reply was that the proposal
	could be considered as an intermediate step to a proper solution involving the
	IRT object or something similar.

	The discussion meandered off to consider social engineering to encourage
	intelligent use of the available tools and data. This was agreed to be a laudable
	aim but outside the scope of the WG

	[AP 48.4 Randy and Niall] To refine existing proposal to take into account the 
	discussion during the session and try and acheive consensus on the mailing list.

	[AP 48.5 RIPE NCC] To implement whatever consensus is reached on the mailing list regarding
	abuse contact.

	[AP 48.6 RIPE NCC] To change DB behaviour to return IRT object

	[AP 48.7 RIPE NCC] To make the PGP attribute optional on the IRT object
	
H. RAToolSet & RPSLng (WW144)
   . usefulness/consistency

	Some comments have been received that these tools are sometimes difficult to use, and the
	parser can return different results under different conditions.

	A few members of the WG present have used the tools.

	It was noted that the gcc, bison etc version make a lot of difference.

	The main issue is that there seems to be no response from the maintainers to problems.
	The development model seems to be moderately broken. Suggestion to put it in Sourceforge
	or something similar. The response to this was that the RIPE NCC software team really
	doesn't have the resource to devote a fulltime (or even part time) maintainer to the
	toolset. A question is that is it reasonable to try and support it on the range of
	platforms and compilers out in the wild?

	It was felt that if the WG felt this was important, then it should mandate the RIPE
	NCC to either properly maintain it, or to seek a better development model. The RIPE
	NCC is currently storing up patches and then applying them in batches just prior to a 
	release. This is probably not applicable to the environment in which we find ourselves,
	where protocols and OSes are changing so fast.

	The possibility of a complete re-write was raised. Although this is probably not an
	option the rewrite of the most used parts is a possibility.

	[AP 48.8 RIPE NCC] To raise the issue on the appropriate mailing lists and seek advice
	on change of development model.

	[AP 48.9 RIPE NCC] To apply all available patches to RAToolset etc, and to start a 
	rewrite in ANSI C

Y. Input from other WGs

	See item F

Z. AOB