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20040128 08:07:15 | BasicBaer@irc | nickname changed from BasicBaer to HTV5
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20040128 13:00:12 | uk3@irc | hi girona
20040128 13:00:26 | girona@irc | hi uk3
20040128 13:00:32 | girona@irc | whats the schedule today?
20040128 13:00:40 | gucci@irc | gucci has joined the channel.
20040128 13:00:46 | girona@irc | have I missed the db-working group?
20040128 13:00:59 | uk3@irc | nono it is starding _now_
20040128 13:01:18 | girona@irc | i'll tune in then, by the power of the 'net.
20040128 13:01:24 | uk3@irc | yep
20040128 13:03:21 | marcoh@irc | marcoh has joined the channel.
20040128 13:03:33 | marcoh@irc | hi there
20040128 13:03:56 | uk3@irc | hi
20040128 13:04:11 | uk3@irc | rodney is sitting right behind me
20040128 13:04:25 | shane_kerr@jabber | *shane_kerr* shane_kerr has become available
20040128 13:05:49 | evilmark@irc | hi
20040128 13:06:05 | uk3@irc | brb
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20040128 13:14:45 | girona@irc | uk3: say hi to rodney for me.
20040128 13:15:38 | olaf@jabber | *olaf* olaf has become available
20040128 13:16:18 | olaf@jabber | <olaf> Wilfried asked for participants in jabber that are in the room to proxy possible questions.
20040128 13:16:43 | uk3@irc | girona: greetings as well
20040128 13:16:49 | olaf@jabber | <olaf> Anybody in this session that is not in the room that wants info from the room proxied to this room?
20040128 13:17:06 | olaf@jabber | <olaf> make that from the meeting room to this chat room
20040128 13:18:15 | rick@irc | rick has joined the channel.
20040128 13:19:01 | marcoh@irc | olaf: they other way round is more uusefulll..from chat to the live discussion
20040128 13:26:33 | olaf@jabber | <olaf> To be able to make that useful there first have to be people that are interested in knowing what happens at the venue reflected in here..
20040128 13:27:36 | olaf@jabber | <olaf> Anyway. as long as I am around I'd be happy to proxy info from jabber into the room
20040128 13:32:33 | ww144@jabber | *ww144* ww144 has become available
20040128 13:32:35 | jhma@jabber | *jhma* jhma has become available
20040128 13:33:44 | marcoh@irc | ww1444: any interest in having my presentation before hand ?
20040128 13:38:15 | emma@irc | emma has joined the channel.
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20040128 13:47:58 | ww144@jabber | <ww144> marcoh: no, but afterwards, pls.!
20040128 13:50:25 | marcoh@irc | ww144: ok
20040128 13:51:27 | olaf@jabber | *olaf* olaf has left
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20040128 13:56:28 | evilmark@irc | hi mally
20040128 14:01:08 | mally@irc | hello mark from demon
20040128 14:01:31 | evilmark@irc | ...
20040128 14:04:13 | marcoh@irc | hi mark
20040128 14:04:17 | evilmark@irc | wotcha
20040128 14:04:27 | evilmark@irc | you up soon?
20040128 14:05:18 | marcoh@irc | end of this session i believe, meaning during the coffeebreak as I'm not expecting to get through before 16:00
20040128 14:05:51 | evilmark@irc | cor. how long are you planning to talk for ?
20040128 14:05:58 | marcoh@irc | shane has a lot of material to present
20040128 14:06:09 | marcoh@irc | 10-15m
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20040128 15:04:40 | marcoh@irc | need coffee
20040128 15:04:46 | marcoh@irc | :)
20040128 15:08:56 | evilmark@irc | i just slipped out for a pepsi :)
20040128 15:43:56 | ww144@jabber | *ww144* ww144 has left
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20040128 18:30:18 | BasicBaer@irc | bye
20040128 18:30:21 | BasicBaer@irc | nickname changed from BasicBaer to reaBcisaB
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20040129 07:45:20 | randy@jabber | *randy* randy has become available
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20040129 08:00:03 | evilmark@irc | morning
20040129 08:00:17 | ww144@jabber | *ww144* ww144 has become available
20040129 08:01:54 | ntitley@jabber | *ntitley* ntitley has become available
20040129 08:03:30 | cron2@irc | cron2 has joined the channel.
20040129 08:03:40 | evilmark@irc | bit quiet in here today
20040129 08:04:10 | cron2@irc | it's 9:04, what do you expect?
20040129 08:04:29 | evilmark@irc | 200 attentive faces
20040129 08:04:37 | shane_kerr@jabber | *shane_kerr* shane_kerr has become available
20040129 08:04:42 | evilmark@irc | i'm often disappointed
20040129 08:04:44 | cron2@irc | on thursday, 9:00? no way :)
20040129 08:04:55 | cron2@irc | people will show up with sleepy faces at 9:30...
20040129 08:05:01 | evilmark@irc | more likely today then tomorrow :)
20040129 08:05:25 | cron2@irc | yep
20040129 08:06:42 | hu60@jabber | *hu60* hu60 has become available
20040129 08:11:38 | randy@jabber | <randy> why the specific group-of-people object as for IRT as opposed to generalizing groups one can use for arbitrary purposes?
20040129 08:12:15 | marcoh@irc | randy: how do you mean ?
20040129 08:12:30 | evilmark@irc | not just have a generic role object, i think
20040129 08:12:33 | evilmark@irc | ^why
20040129 08:13:16 | marcoh@irc | irt is overdesigned IMHO
20040129 08:13:32 | randy@jabber | <randy> so we stop inventing the group object again and again for specific purposes
20040129 08:13:53 | ww144@jabber | <ww144> there is a general role object
20040129 08:14:06 | evilmark@irc | so add optional fields to it
20040129 08:14:12 | evilmark@irc | to allow its use as an irt thing.
20040129 08:14:26 | cron2@irc | ww44: but there is no way to tag that as "look *here* for abuse contacts"
20040129 08:14:46 | randy@jabber | <randy> that is a ref from inet-num:
20040129 08:14:54 | evilmark@irc | you add abuse-c: to an inetnum, and stick it in there, or something.
20040129 08:15:14 | cron2@irc | nickname changed from cron2 to gd9-ripe
20040129 08:15:49 | marcoh@irc | btw, anybody here not in the room needing a relay for questions ?
20040129 08:16:15 | randy@jabber | <randy> yes, i am too shy :-)
20040129 08:16:27 | marcoh@irc | randy :)
20040129 08:16:27 | evilmark@irc | lol
20040129 08:16:43 | evilmark@irc | pure comedy :)
20040129 08:16:55 | marcoh@irc | you mean, being at the mic all the time you fail to keep track of this channel :)
20040129 08:16:57 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> yeah, randy's right here.
20040129 08:16:57 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> ;)
20040129 08:17:05 | randy@jabber | <randy> shyness is an american cultural thing, kinda like good coffee and beer
20040129 08:17:20 | evilmark@irc | and invading the rest of the planet ;)
20040129 08:17:50 | randy@jabber | <randy> well, what the hell was our oil doing under their sand?
20040129 08:18:01 | marcoh@irc | america and good coffee ? :))
20040129 08:18:12 | evilmark@irc | heh
20040129 08:18:42 | ww144@jabber | <ww144> getting more for free is always "good" (the refill...)
20040129 08:19:07 | marcoh@irc | ww144: need spam (it's free today)
20040129 08:19:12 | gd9-ripe@irc | but if you have to pay for the "free" refills when you only want one cup...?
20040129 08:19:32 | evilmark@irc | then you lose out
20040129 08:20:58 | jlawrence@irc | jlawrence has joined the channel.
20040129 08:29:45 | emma@irc | emma has joined the channel.
20040129 08:30:04 | gd9-ripe@irc | ah people are starting to wake up
20040129 08:31:42 | ntitley@jabber | <ntitley> Or at least log in.....
20040129 08:33:20 | evilmark@irc | or at *most* log in..
20040129 08:33:31 | ntitley@jabber | <ntitley> quite
20040129 08:33:40 | bruce-hp@jabber | *bruce-hp* bruce-hp has become available
20040129 08:40:02 | randy@jabber | *randy* randy has left
20040129 08:50:18 | hu60@jabber | *hu60* hu60 has left
20040129 08:58:37 | marcoh@irc | we use to generic names on our attributes
20040129 08:59:09 | marcoh@irc | little late, but goodmorning emma :)
20040129 08:59:20 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> I think including some better URL's in the output might help though.
20040129 08:59:32 | marcoh@irc | agree
20040129 08:59:49 | emma@irc | morning!
20040129 08:59:52 | uk3@irc | uk3 quit IRC altogether
20040129 09:00:03 | gd9-ripe@irc | but make that optional, please
20040129 09:00:23 | marcoh@irc | but why not change the string 'remarks' on that 100.000 lines containing abuse@ to something more descriptive
20040129 09:01:01 | rt644-ripe@irc | rt644-ripe has joined the channel.
20040129 09:01:55 | evilmark@irc | abuse:
20040129 09:02:05 | evilmark@irc | and/or abuse-c:
20040129 09:02:23 | jlawrence@irc | 'cos the end user either doesn't read the remarks or as you did just filters out email addresses and sends a complaint to all of them
20040129 09:02:44 | gd9-ripe@irc | but if he does that, he'll *still* spam all the addresses, including abuse-c:
20040129 09:02:48 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> I think we should change the default behaviour to not include anything that is only for data maintainers.
20040129 09:02:55 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> And no routing information.
20040129 09:03:05 | gd9-ripe@irc | shane: that was tried (suppress changed:) and reverted (!)
20040129 09:03:14 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> So: no notify:, changed:, mnt-by:, etc.
20040129 09:03:18 | marcoh@irc | my objection to abuse-c is that it's pointing to a person and as such carries yet another email: attribute
20040129 09:03:57 | ntitley@jabber | <ntitley> Except that email still isn't mandatory for a person, is it?
20040129 09:03:58 | marcoh@irc | change the changed from <email> date to person-hndl date ?
20040129 09:04:18 | ntitley@jabber | <ntitley> Just remove the chnaged field.... good idea shane
20040129 09:04:27 | marcoh@irc | and not return the person on default queries
20040129 09:04:51 | marcoh@irc | me too, but why email
20040129 09:04:52 | ntitley@jabber | <ntitley> Yes
20040129 09:05:29 | gd9-ripe@irc | RIPE-Handle would be fine
20040129 09:05:57 | bruce-hp@jabber | *bruce-hp* bruce-hp has left
20040129 09:06:03 | bruce-hp@jabber | *bruce-hp* bruce-hp has become available
20040129 09:06:15 | gd9-ripe@irc | OTOH it *has* proved helpful to spam changed: contacts if nobody else is reacting... (*sigh*)
20040129 09:06:30 | evilmark@irc | evil man
20040129 09:06:49 | gd9-ripe@irc | :-]
20040129 09:07:00 | rt644-ripe@irc | changed: are not intended for spam reports
20040129 09:07:23 | rt644-ripe@irc | Offer a view that suppresses them?
20040129 09:07:26 | evilmark@irc | depending on my mood, i put hostmaster@ in changed lines
20040129 09:07:26 | ntitley@jabber | <ntitley> It *isn't* helpful..... just bloody annoying
20040129 09:07:40 | evilmark@irc | to avoid myself getting tons of shite
20040129 09:07:46 | marcoh@irc | gd9: I don't want to wait the day that some (l)user calls me up in the middle of the night to complain about spam, while he just doesn't know how to read headers
20040129 09:07:55 | gd9-ripe@irc | rt644-ripe: yes, you're fully correct.
20040129 09:08:13 | gd9-ripe@irc | marcoh: which is an argument against using handles instead of e-mail addresses
20040129 09:08:17 | evilmark@irc | no, offer a view that doesn't suppress them. but suppress tem by default :)
20040129 09:08:21 | marcoh@irc | I have some decent filtering, but the number of complaints is getting more anyoing as the spam itself
20040129 09:08:22 | ntitley@jabber | <ntitley> I've had death threats (hopefully not serios) based on changed lines
20040129 09:08:29 | gd9-ripe@irc | evilmark: been there, done that, reverted it. remember?
20040129 09:08:45 | evilmark@irc | nope, i don't remember :(
20040129 09:09:11 | rt644-ripe@irc | Apparently it lost all changed: records
20040129 09:09:14 | marcoh@irc | gd9: sure, using handles will prevent the 'grep' dudes from spamming me
20040129 09:09:28 | jlawrence@irc | marcoh - are you actually getting complaints that are relevant - ie for spam which even has one of your IP addresses in the headers
20040129 09:09:33 | gd9-ripe@irc | ... but then they will lookup the handle and phone call you
20040129 09:10:08 | marcoh@irc | I don't see much spam, most of it comes to my personal box and spamd will also filter the forwarded message
20040129 09:10:42 | marcoh@irc | so no spam complaint, most are port scans/virus warning and those are mostly coming from my space
20040129 09:11:26 | evilmark@irc | i have a spam complaint sent to me due to a changed line which included a 3M bitmap image of a screenshot of a spam in this guys inbox
20040129 09:11:53 | evilmark@irc | from outlook, none the less. no headers or anything. what a prick.
20040129 09:12:02 | gd9-ripe@irc | but a creative one :-)
20040129 09:12:08 | marcoh@irc | evilmark: they will end up in /dev/null next the real spam
20040129 09:12:31 | evilmark@irc | creative, yes. idiotic, yes.
20040129 09:12:48 | gd9-ripe@irc | you just defined "end user"
20040129 09:12:50 | jlawrence@irc | I don't think most end users even know headers exist.
20040129 09:13:05 | evilmark@irc | let's stop using headers then \o/
20040129 09:13:29 | marcoh@irc | speaking of death threads, do you guys also have the feeling that complaints on scanning are less polite then the spam complaints ?
20040129 09:13:52 | evilmark@irc | Hey There Freak.
20040129 09:13:52 | evilmark@irc | Remember me
20040129 09:13:52 | evilmark@irc | tosser trying to hack you are soo shit at least you could have hidden your
20040129 09:13:52 | evilmark@irc | ip address.
20040129 09:13:52 | evilmark@irc | PS I now know where you live.
20040129 09:13:57 | evilmark@irc | yes :(
20040129 09:14:05 | bruce-hp@jabber | *bruce-hp* bruce-hp has left
20040129 09:14:13 | gd9-ripe@irc | evilmark: huh, never got one of those.
20040129 09:14:19 | evilmark@irc | i get them all the time :(
20040129 09:14:29 | gd9-ripe@irc | the complaints on scanning that I send out are always very polite - and I get lots of positive feedback :-)
20040129 09:14:40 | marcoh@irc | gd9: want me to put your address in a couple of changed lines ?
20040129 09:14:46 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> evilmark: maybe you should stop being a l33t hax0r?
20040129 09:14:47 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> ;)
20040129 09:14:54 | evilmark@irc | i tend to reply telling them what idiots they are, and threatening to report them to their isp's abuse dept :)
20040129 09:14:59 | gd9-ripe@irc | marcoh: I am in all inetnum:s in 195.30.0.0/16 - which is quite a lot
20040129 09:14:59 | marcoh@irc | please forward all real complaints to abuse _at_ demon _dot_ nl :)
20040129 09:15:06 | evilmark@irc | shane: it's nothing to do with me!
20040129 09:15:19 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> evilmark: I know, just kidding
20040129 09:15:28 | bruce-hp@jabber | *bruce-hp* bruce-hp has become available
20040129 09:16:21 | marcoh@irc | gd9: you mean your users actually know how to behave ?
20040129 09:16:55 | evilmark@irc | anyone evern been spammed by something called firebird?
20040129 09:17:09 | evilmark@irc | http://www.digitaldaemon.com/
20040129 09:17:16 | evilmark@irc | i had a long argument with that cretin
20040129 09:17:39 | gd9-ripe@irc | marcoh: we carry a big stick, and usually we hit the customers before others even start complaining
20040129 09:18:16 | marcoh@irc | we try it, but I think we should even hit them before they become a customer
20040129 09:18:21 | gd9-ripe@irc | *g*
20040129 09:18:26 | marcoh@irc | as a first test
20040129 09:18:58 | gd9-ripe@irc | our customer base is mostly business customers, so the amount of abuse/portscanning/l33t hack0rz/viruses is *somewhat* limited, as compared to "end user broadband" networks
20040129 09:18:59 | marcoh@irc | I even proposed to include an IQ-test in our webbased order tool
20040129 09:19:33 | marcoh@irc | will save some support agents
20040129 09:19:43 | gd9-ripe@irc | marcoh: not so good for business... (have you seen one of the recent outlook-klick-on-attachment viruses that claims to be an IQ-test? Now that one is cool :) )
20040129 09:20:09 | marcoh@irc | gd9: good point...
20040129 09:21:32 | emma@irc | my mother can't read headers but should still be able to e-mail!
20040129 09:22:04 | emma@irc | after all isn't it our responsibility to enable the general to be able to make complaints easily and to respond to those complaints quickly..
20040129 09:22:12 | emma@irc | hence the discussion earlier?!
20040129 09:22:15 | gd9-ripe@irc | yes, actually the problem is not so much "end users without clue" - they should not *need* clue - but "broken software" and "asshole spammers" :-(
20040129 09:22:29 | marcoh@irc | emma, as long as she has some utillity to find out where to complain
20040129 09:22:42 | gd9-ripe@irc | insofar things as "spamcop" aren't that bad...
20040129 09:22:56 | emma@irc | she calls me, but she shouldn't have to!
20040129 09:23:32 | marcoh@irc | gd9: spamcop is one of the better, they respond if you give them a contact for an allocation
20040129 09:23:38 | gd9-ripe@irc | show her how to use spamcop (or similar tools) - and we need to make sure that the spamcop authors don't spam changed: (I think they learned that :) )
20040129 09:23:42 | gd9-ripe@irc | marcoh: yep
20040129 09:24:34 | emma@irc | then we don't need to change the whois default output??!
20040129 09:24:53 | emma@irc | what are we discussing this for then ;-)
20040129 09:24:58 | marcoh@irc | maybe we just need to builld our own generic complaint software for windows/mac/*nix
20040129 09:25:39 | marcoh@irc | emma`; all those luser who want to create a spamcop like thing, but don't know what the db is or how it works
20040129 09:26:54 | emma@irc | i see more mis-directed complaints from end users using the DB themselves rather than using software (although obviously both are a problem).
20040129 09:28:27 | rt644-ripe@irc | marcoh: you may be right. Get the right IPs ...
20040129 09:28:35 | marcoh@irc | emma: then they need a reading course...like my remarks should be clear
20040129 09:31:15 | emma@irc | i'm getting very confused about what the actual problem we are trying to solve here is. Do we think the output is a problem, or do we think the software is a problem (then its nothing to do with the DB)
20040129 09:33:35 | rt644-ripe@irc | emma: They are related. 'Difficult' data or presentation is too hard a test for the software skills.
20040129 09:33:58 | marcoh@irc | the problem is people who write tools, who take data from the ripe-db
20040129 09:34:26 | marcoh@irc | and don't know how to interprete the response they get
20040129 09:34:29 | emma@irc | emma quit IRC altogether
20040129 09:35:08 | bruce-hp@jabber | *bruce-hp* bruce-hp has left
20040129 09:35:18 | rt644-ripe@irc | marcoh: No, from all whois DBs. But perhaps they find ARIN format easier?
20040129 09:35:45 | marcoh@irc | Arin is easier, they allow for AbuseContact: <email>
20040129 09:36:09 | marcoh@irc | but I'm going for coffee...feel free to kill me outside on this :P
20040129 09:39:14 | ww144@jabber | *ww144* ww144 has left
20040129 09:39:31 | gd9-ripe@irc | PGP *will* work with syncupdates
20040129 09:39:33 | gd9-ripe@irc | just for reference
20040129 09:39:45 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> Yes, but only in cut & paste mode.
20040129 09:39:51 | gd9-ripe@irc | shane?
20040129 09:40:07 | gd9-ripe@irc | not web-updates, sync-update
20040129 09:40:12 | shane_kerr@jabber | <shane_kerr> Oh - righto!
20040129 09:40:32 | gd9-ripe@irc | but syncupdates are way cool
20040129 09:44:18 | shane_kerr@jabber | *shane_kerr* shane_kerr has left
20040129 09:46:37 | rt644-ripe@irc | rt644-ripe has left the channel.
20040129 09:46:56 | jlawrence@irc | jlawrence quit IRC altogether
20040129 09:50:44 | ntitley@jabber | *ntitley* ntitley has left
20040129 09:54:44 | reaBcisaB@irc | nickname changed from reaBcisaB to BasicBaer
20040129 09:54:44 | BasicBaer@irc | hello everyone
20040129 09:55:23 | BasicBaer@irc | morning
20040129 10:04:27 | gd9-ripe@irc | gd9-ripe has left the channel.
20040129 10:06:14 | marcoh@irc | marcoh has left the channel.
20040129 10:06:42 | evilmark@irc | evilmark has left the channel.
20040129 10:31:46 | mally@irc | mally has left the channel.
20040129 10:48:33 | hakke@irc | hakke has left the channel.
20040129 11:28:44 | BasicBaer@irc | bye
20040129 11:28:47 | BasicBaer@irc | nickname changed from BasicBaer to reaBcisaB
20040129 13:17:33 | reaBcisaB@irc | nickname changed from reaBcisaB to BasicBaer
20040129 13:17:33 | BasicBaer@irc | hello everyone