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Plenary Session Minutes

Plenary Minutes from RIPE 30 which took place in Stockholm in May 1998.

Chair: Rob Blokzijl
Scribe: Mirjam Kuehne

- 1. - Opening

Rob Blokzijl opened the plenary session of the 30th RIPE meeting.

- 2. - Adoption of the agenda

The agenda was approved as advertised. These minutes follow the
agenda.

- 3. - Minutes RIPE 29

The minutes of RIPE 29 were approved as they had been circulated before
the meeting. No comments/additions.

- 4. - From the chair

The Chair reported on the status of the investigation into setting up
a new Regional Registry, in addition to RIPE NCC, ARIN and APNIC. The
new registry should cover the Russian Federation and a number of
neighbouring countries. See RIPE-167 for the details.

The Chair repeated that the guiding principles as laid down in RIPE
167 were:

+ broad concensus in the communities concerned

+ a reasonable geographical coverage (i.e. more than one country)

+ an open process, involving the RIPE NCC community at large.

The Chair concluded that none of these requirements have been met.
Therefore, the creation of a 4th Regional IP Registry, as described in
RIPE 167 is no longer foreseen.

The historical special relationship between the RIPE NCC and RosNIIROS
will be revisited.

- 5. - Ed Kern: Multihoming with NATs

http://www.academ.com/nanog/feb1998/nat/index.html

- 6. - Yakhov Rekther: IPv4 now, IPv6 when ready

Slides available here.

- 7. - Randy Bush: BGP AS Origin Authentication with DNS


http://psg.com/~randy/980519.ripe/
draft-bates-bgp4-nlri-orig-verif-00.txt

- 8. - Bob Hinden: Ipng Overview and Status

http://playground.sun.com/ipng/presentations/IPv6-RIPE.ppt

Questions:

Sean Doran: Who decides who is a transit provider?
Bob: the Regional Internet Registries
DFK pointed out that the RIR's don't know how to do this at the
moment. Bob: easier to determine who is not a transit ISP.

Bob explained that it is very important that all assignments are
publicly registered in a DB. And that the RIR's can ask the TLA
holders for more information.

The proposed procedure is very similar to the slow start procedure
currently in place for Ipv4 allocations. You initially only get a
small piece. After 9 months the ISP has to prove that the address
space has been used effectively. 90% Must be used before additional
address space can be requested.

Status: address format and specifications are almost draft standard.
Work on the router specs is in progress.
There are many implementations being worked on for both, hosts and
routers. Even MS has released a prototype for Windows NT together
with source code.

The Ipv6 backbone 6bone is deployed well.

Deployment timetable ( Bob's perspective)
1997-1998: product deployment continues, protocols refined based
on experiences
1998-1999: Ipv6 appears in user systems as part of SW upgrades,
users try out Ipv6
1999-2000: organisations start converting to Ipv6, translate to
Ipv4 at organisational boundaries

More info:
http://playground.sun.com/ipng/
http://www.6bone.net/


- 9. - Carl Malamud: The Internet Atlas

See also: http://not.invisible.net/talks/RIPE30/
(Caution: the HTML was put together for a talk from local disk
and makes agressive bandwidth assumptions. But, so does the Atlas. :)

The Internet Atlas BOF consisted of a 80 minute presentation on
cartography and the Internet by Carl Malamud, followed by 45
minutes of general discussion on the topic. The BOF looked
at several hundred maps from the Internet and from sources
as diverse as Marshall Island stick maps and ancient petroglyphs.
A three-year strategy was outlined for construction of an Internet
Atlas and a variety of short-term efforts were proposed.

Questions:

Frode Greisen: The net is changing so quickly, how can you map it?
Carl: it is mainly expanding. But yes, it has a dynamic aspect, and
the maps will be on the net and be dynamically generated.


- 10. - Reports from the RIPE WG's

MBONE-WG
--------
Chair: Thomas Telkamp replaced Kurt Kayser who couldn't make it to
this meeting
Scribe: Felix Kugler
Attendees: 41

The following items were discussed:

- status EU MBONE
- DANTE migration to align with TEN-34
- Pruning: start action to detect non-pruners

- MPEG-LB audio coding (Martin Sieler)
-impressive quality at 64 kbps

- AMSIX multicast experiments
-ongoing, separate VLAN now
-how to exchange multicast traffic?
-MBGP

Routing-WG
----------
Chair: Joachim Schmitz
Scribe: Ambrose Magee
Attendees: 74

Topics:
- RPSL implementation
- Merit & RIPE NCC in phase II according to transition plan
- 'Progress Report on Transition to RPSL' by David Kessens
- Tutorial & Information at RIPE 31

- Routing Registry Security
- PGP secured submission method (details to be worked on)
- Internet draft 'RPS security' (David Kessens reported)

- Internet Routing Tools + Analysis

- 'Interdomain Routing Statistic' by Craig Labovitz

- BGP AS Origin Authentication with DNS

- Internet draft presented by Randy Bush
(draft-bates-bgp4-nlri-orig-verif-00.txt)

ACTIONS:
RIPE29.R1 on Gerald Winters, Joachim Schmitz and RIPE NCC to provide
definition of Internet Routing Registry (IRR) and AUP
RIPE29.R3 on RIPE NCC (Joao Damas) to implement PGP in the RIPE DB
RIPE30.R1 on the RIPE NCC (Joao Damas) to implement aut-num
authentication
RIPE30.R2 on RIPE NCC, Joachim Schmitz and Wilfried Woeber to
organise RPSL tutorials for RIPE 31

DB Security Task Force
----------------------
Chair: Joachim Schmitz

This is not a RIPE WG, just a small task force. It has been set up one
year ago and has met several times. There has been good progress, a set
of requirements were identified.

Topics:
- Implementation of PGP
It has been decided not to copy Merits 'PGP-FROM' attribute. The
task force also does not want to copy the 'PGP-KEY' object from the
RPS authentication draft. They propose to specify a 'PGP-ID' object
along the lines of this draft.

- The RPS security drafts have been discussed
(draft-ietf-rps-auth-01)
(the rps-dist draft is currently being worked on,
not yet released)

ACTIONS:
RIPE30.DBSTF1: draft a specification for PGP implementation within
2 weeks
RIPE30.DBSTF2: to give feedback to RPS security draft

Next meetings are planned in conjunction with NANOG, IETF, RIPE

DB-WG
-----
Chair: Wilfried Woeber
Scribe: Eamonn McGuinness
Attendees: 61

Reports on:
- RIPE DB general update and status
- RIPE DB consistency efforts
- RPSL capable whoisd
- RPSL transition of Merit and RIPE NCC to phase II of transition plan

Please read rps-dist and rps-auth drafts:
- draft-ietf-rps-auth-01
- (the rps-dist draft is currently being worked on,
not yet released)

There was a proposal from SURFnet to allow to be referenced in admin-c
attributes. No consensus was found (please see actions and please give
input).

ACTIONS:
R30.DB1 on Ronald van der Pol to summarise their proposal to allow role
objects in admin-c attributes
R30.DB2 on the RIPE NCC to clearly document the use of contact
information in the RIPE dB
R30.DB3 on David Kessens to circulate proposal about DNS style tagging
of nic-hdl's
R30.DB4 on Ambrose Magee to publish URL for consistency report on the
DB-WG mailing list for a sneak preview before it will be
published to a broader community

PGP-* authentication proposal: send to DB, Routing and LIR-WG mailing
lists. See if consensus can be reached and have the proposal implemented
by RIPE31 in alpha version to be commented on by community.


DNS-WG
------
Chair: Ruediger Volk

Randy Bush reported from the IETF on interoperability tasks (notify,
dynamic updates). WG gave recommendations and suggestions on the
draft from Hans Niklassen. Ruediger mentioned that there were a few new
versions of BIND.

TLD-WG & RIPE CENTR
-------------------
Chair: Marcel Schneider replaced Niall O'Reilly who couldn't attend this
meeting
Scribe: Vittore Casarosa

Minutes from last WG meeting were not available yet; this will be
discussed at next meeting.

Fay Howard gave a report on the RIPE CENTR activities.

Marcel Schneider made a proposal on a new whois distribution:
He feels that the data in the domain registries must be protected more
than other sets of data (inetnum routing). When the data is misused the
domain registry is usually not concerned; the owner of the data is the
one who should take necessary steps. AUP or contracts are needed for use
of domain related data.These contracts should be given to all parties
that get the data, so that they all know the AUP.

Marcel suggested three possible options to proceed:
- CENTR to set up a draft contract (CENTR had unfortunately no time
yet to discuss this.)
- RIPE NCC to provide the data from the RIPE DB
- do some further study first, the contracts need to be set up in the
individual registries, some of them had to remove entire set of
data they are responsible from the RIPE DB to prevent misuse

Comments and Questions:

Randy Bush articulated his concerns. The proposal sounds like making
selling and misusing the data official. What is now misuse will then be
officially be given to third parties. The data should be private, should
not be given to search engines etc.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what data is actually
concerned, because various sets of data are stored in the RIPE DB and
other types of archives at the RIPE NCC. Daniel Karrenberg clarified
that all data sent to the RIPE NCC in relation with IP address space or
AS number requests (addressing plans etc.) are totally confidential and
will not be published on any public database. Only data registered in
the RIPE database, which is a publicly available DB, is public!

Ipv6-WG
-------
Chair: Thomas Trede
Scribe: Gert Doering
Attendees: 43

Minutes from last meeting are still missing.

Reports:
- David Kessens reported on the 6bone registry deployment
- Bob Hinden gave a summary of the status of the IETF Ipng-WG and
the Ipv6 specifications. He also summarised the 'allocation-rules'
draft (see presentation in plenary session)
- no further input from the audience on new manufacturers
implementations (see list of current implementations in Bob Hindens
presentation)

Mirjam Kuene reported on the current point of view from the RIPE NCC on
the Ipv6 developments. The RIPE NCC has not received any questions or
requirements from the membership for Ipv6 address space. The RIPE NCC
is also in close contact about the allocation rules with the other
regional registries, IANA and the authors of the draft.

No input from other WG's was received.

EOF Tutorial
------------
Chair: (Peter Lothberg)

Henk Smit from Cisco Europe gave a full-day tutorial about ISIS. The
audience was very satisfied with getting some in-depth view on the
protocol. The EOF-WG wants to continue, mainly by giving more technical
seminars and tutorials in conjunction with the RIPE Meeting.

Input on the form and content is welcome

LIR-WG
------
Chair: Mike Norris
Scribe: Pepa Tejedor
Attenders: 100

RIPE NCC
- growth (more than 6 Million hosts in European hostcount)
- staffing (new internal structure at RIPE NCC, Paula Caslav now
manager of Registration Services, Mirjam Kuehne head of external
services)
- workload (1-2 days response time)
- training (2 LIR courses per month, more courses planned, professional
trainer will be hired)
- plans (one hostmaster staff will be dedicated to inaddr and DNS
issues)

ARIN
- structure staff (Executive Board with 7 members, Advisory Board
with 15 members, new staff members)
- migrating DB (from Ingres to Oracle)
- 340 clients

APNIC
- structure, staff
- migrating DB
- ticketing system
- will take over inaddr service (has been done by Telstra so far)

Address Space allocations
- large LIRs experience problems with current policy (/16 maximum
allocation, 90% usage before next allocation) wrt. to internal
route aggregation
- options: allocate more than a /16, revise 90% usage rule, take
growth rate of LIRs into account?
- proposal for RIPE31

Consistency & Auditing (Paula Caslav, see presentation in WG)
- ripe-170
- audit samples (10% didn't respond - keep in mind that LIRs
with little contact where audited first)
- results (will be published)
- problems & solutions (new and old LIR have a completely different
set of problems, training and education activity will be stepped up)

Ipv6 Allocations
- docs close soon
- preliminary rules for allocation

Registry Hierarchy
- consequence of classless assignment (make classless assignments and
aggregate inetnum objects if possible)
- Sub-LIR's
- normal chain of accountability

Future
- new chair
- review tasks (proposal has been sent to LIR-WG mailing list)
- statistics (hosts/domain ration much lower than a few years ago


ANTI-SPAM-BoF
Chair: John Martin
-------------

- No formal meeting took place
- A new charter was presented to form a new WG
- not so much technical issues, because they are been taken care off
somewhere else
- work items:
- code of conduct to which ISP's might agree
- set up a Center for European Network Abuse Resolution (CENAR)
- RIPE NCC might be involved in providing admin services, not
clear yet
- James Aldridge was proposed as chairman

The WG was approved with these two work items and the chairmanship of
James Aldridge.

http://www.staff.EU.net/jhma/anti-spam/charter.html


Netnews-WG
----------
Chair: Felix Kugler
Scribe: John Crain
Attendees: 33

1. Review of actions:

A27.N1 Tool support for News servers - ongoing
A29.N1 Update charter on WG WWW server - done
A29.N2 Update Newsbone document and related WWW pages - open
A29.N3 group sync: information about maintainers and
reference servers - moved to A30.N5
A29.N4 group sync: collect data and edit info page - moved to A30.N5
A29.N5 "News admins guide" - dead

2. Newsbone status report

Web page presented with News servers offering online monitoring. Seven
of the servers are fully compliant with Newsbone.

3. Overview of monitoring tools

5 types of news server software observed on backbone. A table was
presented showing known monitoring/statistical tools. inflow and
diablo-stats now have "surf-support". Volunteers for work on inflow:

A30.N1 Felix Kugler to update inflow package with funcionality to
limit output to a subset of feeds
A30.N2 Kai Siering to update inflow package with outflow-plot script

4. News flowmaps

Kai Siering is now working on this project. Current software to
collect data is resource-intensive and needs a rewrite. Consensus that
using "inpaths"-data from Freenix would be most favourable. Results
will be presented as flowmaps with underlying geographical maps in
GIF format.
Missing server coordinates are a big problem. LOC-records in DNS are
the ideal solution, but not widely deployed currently.

A30.N3 Kai Siering to proceed with work on collect software and
processing of flowmaps
A30.N4 Felix Kugler to work on the coordinate problem

5. Group list maintenance

Gerhard Winkler presented his prototype script. Lack of distinction
between moderated/unmoderated groups which is considered very
important. Synchronization should be based on checkgroup-type group
lists wherever possible. Better contacts to people maintaining
fundamental Usenet resources are urgently needed.

A30.N5 Jonas Luster to improve prototype and to care for better access
to Usenet resources.

6. QOS improvements

A 1'000'000 byte article size limit on the backbone was accepted.
No consensus on a proposed limit to 10 crossposts on the backbone.

A30.N6 Felix Kugler to study effects of various crosspost limits

7. Jonas Luster gave an ad-hoc summary about the forthcoming Usenet
format draft, the so-called "RFC 1036 grandson".

-11.- Report from the RIPE NCC (Daniel Karrenberg)

For the presentation slides, see:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-30/pres/nccrep/

Questions:

Q: Are you planning to publish the results of the auditing on a
public web site?
A: Yes, but only the statistics, not results of particular audits

Q: (Mike Norris) Do we check if domain names registered in the RIPE
DB actually exist?
A: Daniel answered that we are seeing the TLD administrators sending
their data to the RIPE DB. Therefore we assume the domains
exist.

Q: (Christian Panigl) Is the TT project aware of the ToS (type of
services) discussion or any ways of trying to be not honest with
the data?
A: We addressed the possible cheating. There are various ways to
prevent this (one way would do to put a test traffic box at the
customer site to double check).

- 12. - Next Meetings:

RIPE 31: September 23-25 1998, Edinburgh
RIPE 32: January 27-29 1999, Amsterdam
RIPE 33: May 26-28 1999, TBA

Two offers to host a RIPE Meeting: one in Faro, Portugal and one in
Berlin, Germany.

- 13. - A.O.B.

More than 240 people registered for this meeting.
We all thank KTH for their hospitality and especially Lars-Johan Liman
and his colleagues for providing these excellent facilities!!!!

- 14. Close