topbar

RIPE 47

Draft Minutes from the Plenary Session

Date: Thursday and Friday 29 and 30 January 2004
Location: Grand Hotel Krasnapolsky Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Scribe: Rob Allen

The RIPE 47 presentations can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html

A number of RIPE 47 sessions were webcast live. Archived recordings can be found up to one year from webcast at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/sessions-archive.html

Meeting commenced at 14:00

Agenda:

  1. Opening
  2. Agenda RIPE 47
  3. Minutes RIPE 46
  4. From the Chair
  5. Report from the RIPE NCC
  6. Reports from Other RIRs:
    • APNIC
    • ARIN
    • LACNIC
    • Progress on AfriNIC
  7. Report from ICANN
  8. World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS)
  9. DataTAG: High Bandwidth, Long Distance - Where is my Throughput?
  10. RIPE NCC and RIPE Open Forums
  11. Reports from the RIPE Working Groups
  12. Next RIPE Meetings
  13. AOB
  14. Close

  1. Opening & Welcome

    Presented by: Rob Blokzijl, RIPE Chair
    The Chair welcomed the attendees and reviewed the RIPE 47 meeting agenda. The Chair asked for comments. There were none.

  2. Agenda

    Agenda was adopted as published.

  3. Minutes of RIPE 46 Meeting

    The Chair noted that the RIPE 46 Report and minutes have been published.
    He mentioned that, as usual, the community has a week after RIPE 47 to make any final comments before the RIPE 46 minutes are approved.

  4. From the Chair

    The Chair noted that the Plenary agenda follows the usual format, with reports from the RIPE NCC, ICANN and the Working Groups.

    In addition, the Plenary includes a section on the World Summit on the Information Society, a multi-year, government level process that includes area on Internet address distribution and regulation. The Chair noted that the RIPE NCC, and other related organisations, have been participating in this process and that there will be updates on this in the Plenary from Axel Pawlik, RIPE NCC, and Mirjam Kuehne, ISOC.

    The Chair also mentioned that the Plenary will include a technical presentation on the DataTag project.

  5. Report from the RIPE NCC

    Presented by: Axel Pawlik, Managing Director, RIPE NCC
    The report detailed updates at the RIPE NCC including:

    • Member/community involvement
    • Information provision, new projects update (including changing the scope of TTM and introducing DNS Monitoring)
    • Software Engineering (LIR Portal v.2.0, new DB features, X.509 authentication)
    • Operations (RIPE Meeting connectivity, IPv6 webcasting, IRC/jabber support and K-root server anycast)
    • Registration Services (response times stable and reliable over 2003, documentation improvement, simpler web forms)
    • Training (71 courses delivered in 23 countries in 2003, 80 courses planned for 2004)
    • Membership liaison (success of the RIPE NCC Regional Meeting, Middle East, Dubai; more RIPE NCC Regional Meetings planned for 2004)
    • RIPE NCC communications
    • RIR co-ordination

    This presentation can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-ripencc.pdf

    Question about whether the RIPE NCC will start translating documents into different languages.

    Axel Pawlik responded that the RIPE NCC Membership Survey showed some people wanted to have all RIPE documents and the RIPE NCC website translated into different languages. He noted that in principle this is a good idea, but it has the potential to run out of resources and budget.

    Comment that it would be very difficult to continuously update different language versions of the same document.

  6. Reports from Other RIRs

    APNIC
    Presented by Elly Tawhai, APNIC.

    This presentation can be found online at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#plenary

    ARIN
    Presented by Ray Plzak, ARIN.

    This presentation can be found online at:
    [Awaiting presentation]

    LACNIC
    Presented by Hartmut Glaser, LACNIC.

    This presentation can be found online at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-lacnic.pdf

    Progress on AfriNIC
    Presented by Ernest Byaruhanga, AfriNIC.

    This presentation can be found online at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-afrinic.pdf

  7. Report from ICANN

    Presented by Doug Barton, General Manager for IANA

    This presentation can be found online at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-icann.pdf

    Question asking for further insight on expectations of setting up an ICANN office in Brussels.

    Doug Barton responded that this has been discussed for a number of years. He noted that local offices will help with outreach and will help ICANN expand its ability to serve its constituencies.

    Question as to whether a new root hints file has been published. It was noted that VeriSign announced this on the day of the Plenary session. Question on whether this announcement should have come from IANA?

    Doug Barton responded that ICANN worked on a schedule for this. As soon as the new version of the root zone hits L-root (an ICANN operated server) an announcement signed by IANA will be sent.

  8. World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS)

    The Chair introduced this topic. He noted that the World Summit on the Information Society is an initiative of the United Nations. It deals with the information society in its widest aspect.

    The Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) have developed activity in the last year to try to get a specific paragraph corrected which proposed that internet domain and address space co-ordination needs to come under the governance of a suitable international organisation.

    The Chair mentioned that there were 15,000 attendees at the WSIS meeting in December 2003. He noted that key discussions were open to governments only.

    The WSIS and the Internet Society (ISOC)
    Presented by Mirjam Kühne, ISOC

    This presentation can be found online at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-wsis.pdf


    World Summit on the Information Society - RIR activities 2003-2005
    Presented by Axel Pawlik, RIPE NCC.

    This presentation can be found online at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-axel-wsis.pdf

  9. DataTAG: High Bandwidth, Long Distance - Where is my Throughput?

    Presented by Robin Tasker, CCLRC, Daresbury Laboratory, UK

    This presentation can be found online at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-datatag.pdf

    Question on whether there are other options for high speed, bulk data transfer apart from using TCP.

    Robin Tasker responded that putting TCP in certain circumstances does not work very well. Alternatives to TCP have been studied. All have their good and bad points.

    The Chair announced that Part 2 of the Plenary would start Friday, 30 January at 9:30.

    Part 1 of the Plenary closed at 17:40

    Part 2: Friday, 30 January 2004

    Meeting commenced at 9:35

    The Chair noted that the RIPE NCC and RIPE Open Forums were a result of the RIPE NCC 2002 Membership Survey where people asked for a regular channel where they could have freeform discussions about RIPE and the RIPE NCC.

  10. RIPE NCC and RIPE Open Forums

    The Chair brought up the proposal to have two RIPE Meetings per year instead of three.
    This was discussed at the last RIPE Meeting.

    The Chair expressed his view that the amount of work that the RIPE community does over the year could be done as well in two meetings.

    The Chair noted that the 2002 Membership Survey revealed that it is not as easy as it used to be for people to justify coming to RIPE Meetings to their companies.

    The Chair also noted that, as will be reported later in the Address Policy Working Group report, the community has taken the initiative to develop a document that describes the procedures and the way the community works so that it will be easier in the absence of meetings to do more work.

    The Chair called for comments on the proposal to have two RIPE Meetings per year.

    Comment that either two meetings or three meetings per year would be fine. However, if
    RIPE moved to two meetings a year, there should be arranged checkpoints between the meetings where the Working Group Chairs have time allocated to check what the status of current actions are and what needs to be discussed at the next RIPE Meeting. This is because the RIPE Meetings are the final check to ensure that each of the Working Groups has done all that was proposed before the meeting. The arrangement of these inter-meeting checkpoints would be more of an internal co-ordination matter.

    The Chair responded that he liked this idea. This would be something that the Working Group Chairs would be responsible for making full use of. This idea should be part of the future planning in regard to RIPE Meetings.

    Comment that it is difficult for attendees to stay for the whole week of a RIPE Meeting and that maybe the agendas for each meeting should be shortened but that there should still be three meetings per year.

    The Chair noted that this has been suggested in the past. However it has proved to be difficult to squeeze the time required from the Working Group Chairs into the RIPE Meeting week already.

    Comment that at the IETF meetings they start on Sunday and work until 10pm. It was suggested that maybe having a social every night of a RIPE Meeting is too much and the meeting could go on for longer on some days.

    The Chair suggested that the RIPE community try having two RIPE Meetings next year. If it doesn’t work then RIPE Meetings can go back to three times a year.

    Comment that if there are two RIPE Meetings per year then there will be a need to be more strict with schedules and to stick to deadlines for the publication of minutes.

    The Chair responded that in the event of two RIPE Meetings deadlines for minutes, policy proposals and so on will be introduced. The Chair noted that good discussions on a document need plenty of time in advance. This was discussed in the Address Policy Working Group. This will make meetings more productive and will allow for productive work to take place in between RIPE Meetings.

    Comment that the Working Groups probably need to meet more than twice a year. It is very useful to hear from the other RIRs but from one year to the next it is almost the same information and these presentations can be greatly reduced.

    The Chair proposed that in 2005, the community tries having two RIPE Meetings. If this doesn't work adequately and the community want to return to three meetings then the current schedule will be reinstated.

    The Chair noted that the first RIPE Meeting in 2005 will be in Stockholm in May and the second will be in Amsterdam in autumn.

    Report from the ENUM BoF

    Jim Reid presented a report from the ENUM Birds of a Feather (BoF).
    There were 60 attendees.

    Topics included updates on various trials, a report on the Japanese trial, developments in Ireland, a report on ENUM in the UK, a regulator’s perspective on ENUM and a plot test in South France.

    Presentations from the ENUM BoF can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#enum

    It was proposed to create a formal ENUM Working Group. This will be discussed at the next RIPE Meeting.

    The RIPE Chair noted that there will be an ENUM BoF at RIPE 48, and that the first point on the agenda should be the proposal to create an ENUM Working Group.

  11. Reports from the RIPE Working Groups

    RIPE NCC Services Working Group

    Presented by: Kurtis Lindqvist, RIPE NCC Working Group Chair

    Topics included updates from the RIPE NCC on training, registration services and X.509 and a discussion on how the RIPE NCC Services Working Group will work with providing input and requirements from other Working Groups for the RIPE NCC Activity Plan.

    The Working Group Chair congratulated Bijal Sanghani, FLAG Telecom, on her appointment as RIPE NCC Services Working Group Co-Chair.

    The Working Group Chair also noted that he was impressed with the achievements of the RIPE NCC Registration Services Department in cutting down the wait queue times.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#ncc-services

    Database Working Group

    Presented by: Wilifried Woeber, Database Working Group Chair

    There were 87 and 47 attendees in the two sessions.

    Topics included CRISP/Joint-Whois, the removal of auth: NONE, “irt:” vs “abuse:” or “abuse-c:”, RPSLng Status, Input from other Working Groups and DB-SW package.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#db

    The Working Group Chair’s report from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-db.pdf

    Anti-Spam Working Group

    Presented by: Rodney Tillotsen, Anti-Spam Working Group Chair

    There were 41 attendees.

    Topics included DNSBLs tutorial (DNS Blacklists), developments in anti-spam, legislation and litigation, the Anti-Spam Research Group, ways of authenticating where a message comes from (e.g. SPF, DMP, RMX), interaction with the Database Working Group and others regarding IP address abuse of contact.

    The Working Group Chair’s report from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-antispam.pdf

    The Chair asked if there was more of a link these days between spam, viruses, worms etc.

    The Working Group Chair responded that they are all security issues, but that there seems to be a division between people who deal with mail issues and people who deal with what they see as security issues.

    Comment that the security community is very concerned that anti-spam websites are highly targeted by DDos attacks.

    Question about what official RIPE documents are available that deal with anti-spam.

    Working Group Chair responded that there is one relevant document, RIPE 206, which probably needs to be updated.

    The Chair noted that 52 people had been recently arrested in Amsterdam for their spam activities.

    The Working Group Chair commented that “Mail Abuse” may be a more accurate term than “Anti-Spam” for the Working Group.

    Comment that recent US legislation effectively legalises commercial unwanted e-mail if it is not forged.

    The Working Group Chair noted that this is one aspect of the CAN-SPAM legislation and is not good from the Working Group’s point of view.

    Comment that as long as people are going to spam, at least they are not forging it and so it is more possible to filter them.

    The Working Group Chair commented that this is not very encouraging to the anti-spam community.

    Routing Working Group

    Presented by: Joao Damas, Routing Working Group Chair

    There were 90 attendees.

    Topics included a presentation on RISWhois, three presentations on the fast conversion of IGP (interior gateway protocol), a study by Cisco on how to diminish conversion times, and two presentations about recent ideas implemented on live networks.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#routing

    -- BREAK --

    The Chair announced a technical presentation from Amsterdam Internet Exchange to take place in the afternoon after the RIPE Meeting.

    Address Policy Working Group

    Presented by Gert Doering, Address Policy Working Group Chair

    There were a total of 166 attendees for the two sessions.

    Topics included a RIPE NCC update, an ICANN ASO AC update, the policy development process, an AfriNIC status and transitional proposal, charging by LIRs (ripe-152), RIRs' IPv6 address space requirements, a DENIC proposal for the IPv4/IPv6 Anycast DNS Infrastructure Policy

    The Working Group Chair noted that at the next RIPE Meeting, the Working Group will
    start with IPv6 policy as there wasn’t time at this meeting to cover this topic.

    The Working Group Chair also announced that the Address Policy Working Group reviewed the old LIR Working Group actions and decided that, as they do not apply anymore, they should be closed.

    The Working Group Chair noted that the policy process is still open and being worked on. He added that it is necessary to clearly document what is needed to make a policy and to make it easier to understand how to do this. The next step is to take all the ideas that have consensus and to form an editorial committee to write it up. The Working Group Chair requested community support for this editorial committee.

    Comment that it would be useful to circulate the IPv6 policy before the next meeting so that attendees can be prepared.

    The Working Group Chair responded that open items to be discussed will be circulated prior to the next meeting.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#ap

    The Working Group Chair’s report from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-ap.pdf

    EIX Working Group

    Presented by Fearghas McKay, EIX Working Group Chair
    There were 110 attendees.

    Topics included 12 IXP presentations, a brief update from EURO IX and an update from
    DECIX on experience and switches.

    The Working Group Chair mentioned the Switching Wish List. He noted that Mike Hughes will put together an editorial group for new features and old, as well as features that members want to focus on.

    Comment on whether having IXPs presenting every time at the Working Group is useful.
    It was suggested that it would be more useful to work on a more technical basis (e.g. switches, localisation of ISPs around the switches etc.) rather than just have presentations featuring administration details from the same IXPs.

    The Working Group Chair responded that attendees find the reports useful to know what is happening. This is the reason why there are two sessions: one with ISP updates, and one with more technical matters. The Working Group Chair also noted that a third of the ISPs that presented this time, had not presented a summary from their ISP at recent RIPE Meetings.

    Comment on whether it would be useful to have a space on the RIPE Meeting website where ISPs can put their summary reports so there is more time for technical discussions.

    The Chair commented that it would be helpful if agenda could be circulated beforehand so attendees can decide which of the two slots are most useful to them.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#eix

    Test Traffic Working Group

    Presented by Alex Tudor, Test Traffic Working Group Chair
    There were 40 attendees in the first session and 30 in the second session.

    Topics included the reordering of IP packets in the Internet, scalable co-operative latency estimation, a native measurement technique for IPv6-based networks, network delay tomography, and an update from the RIPE NCC on TTM status and plans.

    The Working Group Chair mentioned the need to strike a balance between introducing test traffic measurements to newcomers and offering more advanced content in the sessions for attendees who already know a lot about it.

    The Working Group Chair noted that the new Acceptable Use Policy for TTM has been finalised (ripe-300). This means that TTM (together with the appropriate routing data) will now be made publicly available. The Working Group Chair urged the research community to use this data in the assignments they give to graduate students.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#tt

    IPv6 Working Group

    Presented by David Kessens, IPv6 Working Group Chair
    There were 132 attendees.

    Topics included ranges of IPv6 addresses and their use, global IPv6 routing tables status, reports about actual IPv6 traffic volume compared to IPv4, a tunnel detection tool and operational issues with IPv6.

    The Working Group Chair noted that there was not time for presentations on developments/initiatives regarding IPv6 and the latest IPv6 land speed record. If possible, these presentations will be given at the RIPE 48 sessions. The Working Group Chair also noted that at RIPE 48 the Working Group will consider input for the RIPE NCC Activity Plan.

    At RIPE 48, the IPv6 Working Group will be moved to Wednesday.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#ipv6

    DN* Working Group

    Presented by Jaap Akkerhuis, DN* Working Group Chair
    There were 120 attendees in the first session and 50 in the second session.

    Topics included AAAA / A6 debate, a recent DNSSec Workshop, alternative DNS implementation, upgrading to Bind 9, operational aspects of the DNS and an update on the RIPE NCC Reverse DNS Project.

    The Working Group Chair noted that the DNS Working Group and the DNR Forum has been merged into the DN* Working Group. This new Working Group will not do forward naming policy.

    The Working Group Chair also noted that it has been proposed to abolish the IETF DNS, and it will be interesting to see the repercussions of this for the RIPE DN* Working Group.

    Presentations from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#dn

    The Working Group Chair’s report from this Working Group can be found at:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-plenary-dn.pdf

  12. Next RIPE Meeting

    The Chair asked for community participation in putting together the EOF program for RIPE 48.

    The Chair noted that RIPE 48 will take place in Amsterdam in May, and RIPE 49 will take place in Manchester in September.

  13. AOB

    It was suggested that the Plenary open microphone should take place during the Thursday afternoon session instead of the Friday morning session.

    The Chair replied that this will be taken into consideration in planning the next RIPE Meeting.

  14. Close

    The Chair thanked the staff of the RIPE NCC and the organisations that supported the meeting.

    Thanks to: Afilias, Cisco, NIKHEF, NOKIA, Riverhead, SURFnet and Global Voice Networks.

    The Chair thanked everyone for attending and invited attendees to attend RIPE 48:

    http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-48/index.html

    Meeting closed at 11:50.