RIPE 44

Plenary Minutes

RIPE 44 Meeting - Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Minutes of the Plenary Session

Thursday and Friday, 30 and 31 January 2003

Krasnapolsky Hotel - Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Scribe: Nick Hyrka

The RIPE 44 Meeting presentations can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ 

Meeting commenced at 14:00

Agenda:

1.  Opening Remarks
2.  Adoption of the Agenda
3.  Minutes of the RIPE 43 Meeting
4.  From the Chair
5.  Report from the RIPE NCC
6.  Reports from the Other RIRs
7.  ICANN Update - "Report to RIPE"
8.  Presentation: Improved Secure Communication System for RIPE NCC Members 
9.  RIPE NCC Survey Results
10. RIPE and RIPE NCC: Open Forum
11. Reports from the RIPE Working Groups
12. Next Meetings
13. AOB
14. Close

1.) Opening Remarks 

Presented by: Rob Blokzijl, RIPE Chair

The Chair welcomed the attendees and reviewed the meeting agenda. He
detailed the meeting schedule for Parts 1 and 2 of the RIPE 44
Plenary.

2.) Adoption of the Agenda

Agenda was adopted as published.

3. Minutes of the RIPE 43 Meeting

The minutes were approved without comment.

4.) From the Chair

The Chair noted that the RIPE NCC 2002 membership survey results would
be open for discussion during the Plenary (see agenda point 9). He
noted administrative matters including the technical webcasting trials
during sessions held in the Grand Ballroom.

5.) Report from the RIPE NCC  

Presented by: Axel Pawlik, Managing Director of the RIPE NCC

The report provided the RIPE NCC reaction to the 2002 membership
survey results including an explanation differentiating the RIPE and
the RIPE NCC organisations; RIPE terms of reference (ripe-001); the
RIPE NCC association fundamentals, governing principles, formal
set-up; the Regional Internet Registry (RIR) structure; policy
development process; activity planning process; input channels to the
RIPE NCC; and specific RIPE NCC activities.

The Chair congratulated the RIPE NCC staff, noting the Registration
Services department in particular, for the improved service quality.

This presentation can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-ncc-update/page1.gif

6.) Reports from the Other RIRs

APNIC

Presented by: Anne Lord, APNIC

The report detailed updates at APNIC and its membership including
membership totals, noting the new "Associate" member category; APNIC
staff; IPv4 total allocations (by year and by economy totals); total
assigned AS Numbers; IPv6 total allocations; IPv6 distribution by
economy; IPv6 allocations and reverse DNS; policy implementations;
Hostmaster account management; training update; communications;
service developments; "MyAPNIC" version 1.1 features including online
voting; and the joint APNIC 15/APRICOT 2003 meetings in February,
which will be multicast.

This presentation can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-apnic/

LACNIC

Presented by: German Valdez, LACNIC Board Member

This is the first report by LACNIC after being granted official RIR status.

The report detailed the status and updates of the newest RIR including
LACNIC's recognition by ICANN; its transition plan; LACNIC Internet
resources, including IPv4, IPv6 and AS Number distribution; the LACNIC
service region; operational model; results from the LACNIC III meeting
in Mexico; LACNIC Working Groups; 200 /8 distribution per country;
IPv6 allocations in the LACNIC region; AS Number distribution per
country; IPv4 allocations per month; IPv4 /24 allocations per month;
AS Number assignments per month, projects for 2003; and the LACNIC
staff.

The Chair noted that the LACNIC web site is presented in three
languages: Portuguese, English and Spanish.

This presentation can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-lacnic/

ARIN

Presented by: Ray Plzak, ARIN Managing Director

The report detailed updates including the fifth birthday of ARIN as an
RIR, ARIN membership distribution; ARIN organisational structure and
mission; policy development process; staffing issues and activities;
departmental updates; ongoing projects (including the ERX project);
the Learning Centre launch; web site updates; newsletter updates;
upcoming activities and projects (including the roll-out of the new
CBT); membership services conversion project; the LACNIC transition
process; policy proposals; and the ARIN XI meeting in April.

This presentation can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-arin/


7.) ICANN Update - "Report to RIPE" 

Presented by: Stuart Lynn, ICANN President and CEO

The report detailed status at ICANN including staffing; an IANA report
(including address allocations and protocol workload); the ICANN
reform process; ICANN accomplishments; and next meetings.

- Question on ICANN accomplishments as stated in Stuart's report on
IPv6 updates; that there was inconsistency in what was presented and
what the experience has been; that there was need for change in
delegations to IPv6.

- Stuart stated he had no answer at the time but asked for the
attendee's e-mail address and would reply with the appropriate answer.

- Question on ICANN relations in coming months in relation to role of
the GAC, the status of the contract with the U.S. Department of
Commence and how long there will be a contract with the department;
will it be permanent?  - Stuart said there were two contracts with the
U.S. DoC. One is a "different kind" of MoU than the first. One
agreement is an IANA agreement with a six-month boundary. The DoC will
issue a non-competitive, three-year agreement with IANA. Stuart
commented on the involvement and relationship with the department,
noting that, when there are prerequisite agreements, there must be a
collaborative effort between all parties in order to succeed, keeping
the ultimate goal of internationalisation, privatisation and
independence in mind. He noted that one of the results of ICANN reform
was the development of two-way communication flow of correct, updated
information with the GAC and other organisational units of
ICANN. Stuart said the GAC exists for advice solicitation and that its
advice on DNS is not binding.

This report can be found at:

presentations/http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-icann/page2.htm


- - BREAK - - 


8.) Presentation: Improved Secure Communication System for the RIPE
NCC Members

Presented by: Andrei Robachevsky

The report detailed the interaction schemes of the RIPE NCC with the
membership; the goals of the secure communication system; PKI (public
key infrastructure) definitions and model; the benefits of the secure
system; and a proposed plan for implementation with future
developments.

- Question on plans for deciding whom the certification authority will
be.
 
- Andrei acknowledged that there are ideas under consideration of who
would be the authority.

- Comment on the need to analyse and determine the programs and
platforms that support all of the "building blocks" of the proposed
system.

- Andrei said there has been preliminary testing and so far almost
100% support of programs and platforms were found.

The Chair stated that there would be a RIPE document draft written and
asked for input from the community in its development.

This report can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-secure/

9.) RIPE NCC Survey Results

Presented by: Axel Pawlik, Managing Director of the RIPE NCC

Axel noted the release and posting of the 2002 membership survey
results on the RIPE NCC web site. His report outlined the motivation
for the survey, the questions asked within the survey, the survey
background, and the plan of action to follow from the survey results.

Axel introduced John Earls from KPMG who performed the survey. John
explained his role as "a messenger" in the survey execution and
cautioned the RIPE NCC not to rush in reacting to the survey results
but to consider beforehand the impact of decisions.

John noted the versions of the survey results that have been posted on
the RIPE NCC web site at:

http://www.ripe.net/survey2002/results/index.html

John detailed the methodology of the survey and noted the
participation by respondents whom he thanked. He then provided an
overview of the results.

John's presentation can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-kpmg/

Axel then introduced Kees Neggers, RIPE NCC Chair, who presented the
position on the survey by the RIPE NCC Executive Board.

Kees commented on the perspective that a reaction should not be
immediate and should take time. He suggested there might be a need to
look beyond the services and the quality of services in satisfying the
needs of the membership and the community. He stated that the Board
would study the survey results in detail and would consider
appropriate changes, if necessary. This may affect Registration
Services, policymaking, structure, operations and external
relationships of the organisation.

Axel then presented the RIPE NCC management's "tentative thoughts" on
the results including customer service focus, education and
documentation, membership issues, research and development, and
industry profile. Axel presented work by the RIPE NCC implemented to
answer some of the concerns mentioned in the results. He asked the
attendees for their continued input on what other measures should be
taken.

Axel stated that the survey is only one way to communicate and pointed
out that only 10% of the membership responded. He said that more
comment from the community was wanted and would be accepted over the
next six weeks.

He said that the proposed plan of action is to identify actions,
provide information to the membership, communicate via the mailing
lists, receive feedback from the members and the community, to have a
progress report during RIPE 45 and to integrate actions into the 2004
Activity Plan.

Axel's and Kees' dual presentation can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-survey/

10.) RIPE and the RIPE NCC: Open Forum

The Chair opened the floor to questions and comments on the RIPE NCC
and the 2002 membership survey results.

- Comment that the membership survey results were impressive and
provided a varied and deep report even though it was rather broad in
scope. As an LIR, speaker was concerned about things not addressed in
the report (i.e. financials). He proposed several thoughts such as:
how could success be measured? How do you decide what is the most
vital thing(s) to do? And how do you satisfy a varied level of needs
of the membership?

- Comment supporting the openness, set-up and work of the RIPE
Meeting. Wants to know if it was okay for non-members to comment on
organisational issues? Suggested a web form for opinions on the RIPE
NCC web site.

- Chair said the meeting and the policymaking process is open to all
non-members as well as members. He said there are formal aspects in
membership of the RIPE NCC according to Dutch law but the ultimate
power resided with the membership.

- RIPE NCC Chair Kees Neggers suggested that it might be good to
distinguish between governance and law. He said that the RIPE NCC is
governed by law and the statutes designed by the community. He noted
that policies of address space management are developed in the open
policy meetings and not decided by the RIPE NCC staff or its executive
board.

- Comment that there is a lot of assurance in the survey and the issues
raised are fundamental. But the response plan proposed may be
questionable as it is happening in the existing organisational
structure and there may be a need to step back from the structure to
identify an appropriate response to improve things.

- Comment that less than 10% responded and the majority attending the
RIPE Meetings do not plan to attend another one unless there is a
compelling reason. Speaker further commented that the statistics
presented in the survey are not completely accurate and the membership
may be under-represented.

- Chair replied that from a mathematical point of view, the comment is
correct. However, the percentage compared to the absolute size of the
membership is significant enough to identify areas of concern.

- Comment that another perspective is that the 90% non-respondents
feel that coming to the open meetings may not be worthwhile as they
may feel they cannot truly influence change.

- Comment that the mini survey report conveyed an overly positive
response compared to that conveyed in the full survey report.

- Comment that there were people not interviewed that should have
been; that some things imbedded in the RIR culture may be difficult to
change even though change may be needed. Missing in the report was how
"we, as a culture" have a dialogue about the good and bad of the
report. Also, how do we come to a consensus in the actions and
response? It should not happen in a "back room" but in a constructive
dialogue.

- Axel agreed and said he identified what he perceived were the most
outstanding issues and reminded the attendees to comment via e-mail.

- Comment on group dynamics and psychological attitudes - that there
is a quiet majority that will remain silent that should not be
overlooked.

- Axel replied that he believed this to be true but he wants to give
everyone an opportunity to respond to the survey - including the
so-called "silent majority." He encouraged everyone to read the full
survey report.

- Comment backing earlier comment to have an open, active,
participatory discussion rather than "back room" discussions and
decisions made by the RIPE NCC Executive Board alone.

- Further comment on the inconclusive comments on "Research &
Development" in the results. The term "R&D" puts the focus in the
wrong place and sends the wrong message to newcomers. It also doesn't
communicate correctly and fully the original intent. The question is
what we want the RIPE NCC to be.

- Comment on the functions of community consensus procedure at the
RIPE Meetings versus the methods at other RIR events; the way we make
decisions (i.e. who forms the RIPE community) as an impact
worldwide. Operators' needs must be addressed and not overlooked.

- Comment that the perception on R&D might be helped by re-labelling
it as "general services".

The Chair closed the question and comment period noting the plan of
action as presented by Axel. He reminded the attendees of the six-week
response period for community input on the survey results and any
other thoughts on the RIPE NCC.

Part 1 of the Plenary closed at 5.40 PM

=============================================

Part 2 - Friday 31 January 2003


Meeting commenced at 9:30 AM.

The Chair welcomed attendees to the second half of the Plenary.


11.) Reports from the RIPE Working Groups

Anti-Spam Working Group

Presented by: Rodney Tillotson, Anti-Spam Working Group Chair

The report outlined the Working Group session held Tuesday, 28
January.  There were 26 attendees. Topics included administrative
matters; development updates in UBE including distribution of UBEs by
country, the scraping of Whois databases for addresses, collateral
damage, content issues; developments in anti-spam including
disconnecting bulk mailers, Brightmail service and DNS "Black Lists"
(DNSBLs); product development; technical measures (such as filtering);
interactions; and advice including updating ripe-206, opt-in lists;
"assured path measuring"; agenda for RIPE 45.

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-anti-spam/


Database Working Group

Presented by: Wilfried Woeber, Database Working Group Chair

The report outlined the Working Group session held Thursday 30 January
2003.  There were 90 attendees. Topics included administration; action
items; Database update; ERX project; organisation object proposal;
investigation on "generated" attributes; IPv6 and Database
relationship; irt: object;

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-db/


DNR Working Group (DNR Forum)

Presented by: Jaap Akkerhuis, DNR Working Group Chair

The report outlined the Working Group session held Thursday 30 January
2003.  There were attendees. Topics included administration, reports
from K. Davies (CENTR), B. Manning (ISI) on OTDR testbed and
IPv6/DNSSec activities, D. Karrenberg (RIPE NCC) on root server
monitoring, A. Bartosiewicz (NASK) on EPP in .pl, new rules in .nl on
privacy and arbitration, F. Alvarez on new Internet Domain Names plan
for .es, S. Dyer on IDN and Verisign, C. Schiefner (RIPE NCC) on ENUM
in Europe.


DNS Working Group

Presented by: Jim Reid, DNS Working Group Chair

The report outlined the Working Group session held Tuesday 28 January
2003.  There were 95-120 attendees. Topics included administration,
the installation of new co-chair (Patrik Falstrom); reports by M. Sanz
(DeNIC) on using SRV records to locate Whois servers; BIND/ISC news by
S. Woolf (ISC); diverse DNS implementations on sunic.sunet.se by
M. Nilsson (KTH); action items from the IPv6 Working Group by
A. Robachevsky (RIPE NCC); anycasting and k.rootservers.net by
D. Karrenberg (RIPE NCC); comparing DNS implementations by B. Knowles
(Snow bv); a server survey; stats on software performance; and a
proposal on signing the root zone by J. Ihren (Autonomica).

- There was a question on key management by the routing registries:
will this pull the RIR "cloud into the DNS mess" of ICANN?

- Jim replied that it was a possible scenario but technically the
proposal could work. The political implications need to be examined
further.

- A suggestion was made to split the technical issues from political
ones regarding key signing keys and to consider whether there may be
alternative industry entities to use instead of the RIPE NCC. Also for
the visibility study placed on the RIPE NCC - make it clear that there
are two issues.

Another comment on too many tlds using ns.ripe.net as a slave. It was
clarified that only two tlds have ns.ripe.net as their only slave.

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-dns/


-- BREAK  --


EIX Working Group

Presented by: Mike Hughes, London Internet Exchange

The report outlined the Working Group session held Wednesday 29
January 2003.  There were 127 attendees. Topics included reports from
nine exchanges; news from EURO-IX; and reports on PCH Dial-by-ASN IP
phones; IXP interconnect; IPv6 issues; IXP news.

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-eix/


LIR Working Group

Presented by: Hans Petter Holen, LIR Working Group Chair

The report outlined the Working Group session held Wednesday 29
January 2003.  There were 154 attendees. Topics included
administration, WG Chair division of work including the election of
two new co-chairs, Andrea Borgato and Gert Doering; policy processes;
PI issues; IPv6 issues; open actions.

Comment on IPv6 policy discussions that a minor revision can begin on
the document updating.

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-lir/


Routing Working Group

Presented by: Joao Silva Damas, Co-Chair Routing Working Group

The report outlined the Working Group session held Tuesday 28 January
2003.  There were 111 attendees. Topics included administration, the
appointment of a co-chair, Joao Silva Damas; RRCC update by S. Kerr
(RIPE NCC), CIDR and routing tables updates from P. Smith (Cisco
Systems); RIS update by M. Williams (RIPE NCC); routing instabilities
report by J. Aldridge (RIPE NCC) and H. Uiterwaal (RIPE NCC); report
on RPSLng by J. Silva Damas; operational feedback to IP equipment
vendors by Vijay Gil (presented by Joachim Schmitz); RIPE NCC routing
registry courses; action points.


IPv6 Working Group

Presented by: David Kessens, IPv6 Working Group Chair

The report outlined the Working Group session held Wednesday 29
January 2003.  There were 200 attendees. Topics included
administration, IPv6 version of TTM by H. Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC); IPv6
Whois proxy by Shane Kerr (RIPE NCC); IPv6 state of the art in the
Italian educational and research community by G. P.; input from the
DNS Working Group; route name servers; routing table status; actual
IPv6 traffic volume versus IPv4; workable approaches for IPv6
multihoming; allocation of /23s and fragmentation of IPv6 address
space; IPv6 developments in the RIPE NCC service region and beyond;
RIPE NCC survey on IPv6.

- Comment on potential problem of allocation to the RIRs of /23s being
too small if we hand out large blocks of address space. One of the
points in the ICANN negotiations with RIRs will affect this item. The
RIRs will request a global access pool as a response to remove the
fragmentation.

- Another comment on ripe-261 and inherent problems - not just size of
blocks but which regions are included. There is need for more
discussion on this topic.

- Chair agreed and said the new round of IPv6 discussion will begin
again soon and will include a more global interaction with routing
organisations. He suggests to consider that the routing issues and
IPv6 are much more important than those in IPv4.

- David commented that the WG would like the RIPE NCC to be more open
with the discussions.

- Chair defended the RIRs in being open with proposals.

- Question whether the Chair's proposal reflects the RIR's blueprint
on ICANN's restructuring. Said that the RIR community needs to give
more input into the process.

- Chair said the RIRs could have been more proactive in providing
community with information and the community could be more forthcoming
with input.

- Comment that an inordinate amount of time is spent on IPv6 this
week.

- David replied that there's a large amount of interest in IPv6.

- Comment that IPv6 is not commercially of interest any longer.

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-ipv6/

TechSec Working Group

Presented by: Ted Lindgreen, Chair of TechSec Working Group

The report outlined the Working Group session held Wednesday 29
January 2003.  There were 45 attendees. Topics included a DISI project
update by Olaf Kolkman (RIPE NCC); a DNSSec shadow registry for .nl
report by Miek Gieben; and a "Donkey" presentation by Erik Rozendaal.


Test Traffic Working Group

Presented by:  Henk Uijterwaal, RIPE NCC

The report outlined the Working Group session held Wednesday 29
January 2003.  There were 45 attendees. Topics included
administration; a call for a new Working Group Chair; TTM status
report and plans including a membership and user survey, new business
plan for TTM, technical problems; IPv6 version of TTM with data
analysis; root name server behaviour; Cisco NetFlow report by
B. Claise; Endace Systems on passive monitoring products report by
S. Donnelly; Port 1434 SQL slammer attack and 1434 worm by R. Wilhelm
(RIPE NCC).

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-ttm/

Tools Working Group

Presented by: Manuel Valente, Tools Working Group Chair

The report outlined the Working Group session held Wednesday 29
January 2003.  There were 50 attendees. Topics included
administration, ongoing projects at the RIPE NCC, the LIR Portal with
statistics and proposed priorities (including security, RIPE NCC
ticketing system integration, online chat with Hostmasters); the
future of the tools Working Group (including a new charter and a
request for more input from the community).

More information on this Working Group session can be found at:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/archive/ripe-44/presentations/ripe44-plenary-tools/

Secret Working Group

Presented by: Olaf Kolkman, RIPE NCC

12.) Next Meeting

The RIPE 45 Meeting will be held 12-16 May 2003 in Barcelona, Spain.

13.) AOB

There was no other business.

14.) Close of Meeting

The Chair thanked the staff of the RIPE NCC and the organisations that
supported the RIPE 44 Meeting:

Cisco Systems (U.S.)
SURFnet
Afilias
NIKHEF
KPN EuroRings
AMSIX
The RIPE NCC

The Chair thanked everyone for attending and invited attendees to
participate in RIPE 45:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-45/index.html

Meeting closed at 12:30 PM.