EOF Minutes

		Second European Operators Forum 
			15 July 1994
		Chaired by Peter LOTHBERG
		Minute took by Marc PICHON
		Hosted by TRANSPAC FRANCE
		  Montparnasse Tower
			Paris

Dear EOFers,

	This is the minutes for the Paris eof meeting, 15 July 1994.


Marc

=============================================================================
Marc PICHON		pichon@localhost	Phone # 33 1 40 75 07 11
TRANSPAC				Fax #   33 1 40 74 02 87
206, rue du faubourg Saint Honore
75008 Paris, France
==============================================================================

PARTICIPANTS

Name 				Organization		Email

Peter LOTHBERG		PL	EBONE		roll@localhost
Bernard TUY		BT	RENATER		tuy@localhost
Stephan BIESBROEK	SB	BELNET		stephan@localhost
Christophe CHAILLOT	CC	France Telecom	chaillot@localhost
Marc PICHON		MP	TRANSPAC/RAIN	pichon@localhost
Van Phuong NGUYEN	VN	TRANSPAC/RAIN	nguyen@localhost
Nigel TITLEY		NT	British Telecom	NIGEL.TITLEY@localhost
Jean-Michel PLANCHE 	JP	OLEANE		jmp@localhost
Keith MITCHELL		KM	PIPEX		keith@localhost
Frode GREISEN		FG	EBONE		frode.greisen@localhost
Alain PEGORARI		AP	France Telecom	pegorari@localhost
Gilles ANTOINE		GA	TRANSPAC	antoine@localhost


1 ADMIN

1.1 EXCUSES

Excuses were received from Daniel KARRENBERG and Per Gregers Bilse.


1.2 MINUTEMAN

Marc PICHON volunteered !!!


1.3 APPROVAL OF THE PREVIOUS MINUTE

The Lars-Johan LIMAN's minute is approved. However, the word "NATIONAL" 
(chapter 1.6) should be removed.



2. TRAFFIC AND ROUTING EXCHANGE MODELS BETWEEN PROVIDERS

After KM gave his talk(Emailed by KM the 12th of July 1994 on the eof-list)
here are the comments made by the participants:


FG: In EBONE we have such agreements but they could be a problem because of:  
- non English speaking people 
- the juridic aspects,
however, they are still useful.

PL: The scalling process is very important, we need guide, samples.

PL: What does mean "Non-Transit" ?

PL: How do we troubleshoot the network ?

PL: Email is not an Internet Service.

PL: The two parts should optimize the backbone usage.

PL: CIX is not relevant but as an example.

PL: No need to differentiate NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL if we define what
transit means.

PL:  How do we proceed to fix problems between operators?

FG: Could we have example of real agreements that have been writing down,
Are they public ?

KM: It is difficult to describe every problems but we could describe a few
as transit, third party, back up, .... So, it will be possible to solve 
local problems using standard.

SB: Neutral Interconnection could solve most of the problems.

KM: We need a document defining relations in neutral interconnect. How do we
define a route server ?

KM: Neutral Interconnect are not described in this document. Who pays for 
the facility management ?

PL: By management we mean the guy who resets the router or take care of 
the modem. In Europe, the Phone Companies take care of the modem.

KM: We expect a new version of this document before 6 weeks from now.

Conclusion: KM and PL will work on this document.


3. Connectivity from Europe to other continents via the US.

Canceled due to the absence of Bernhard Stockman.


4. WHAT ROLE WILL THE US NAPs PLAY IN THE GLOBAL INTERNET

The NAPs (Network Access Point) will be operational by November 1994. 
The NAPs are sponsored by the US government but the customer will have 
to pay to be connected. Three NAPs are forecast:

a) in California using SMDS technology
b) in Chicago using ATM technology
c) in New york using FDDI, Bridge and Ethernet technologies.

At this time we do not know if the networks DOE and NSI are going to
get a connection to a NAP and to which NAP. 

As the NSF Backbone will disappear soon the problem is now: in order to
get full connectivity to the rest of the world to which NAP should we connect?
A rule of thumb will be to follow the same politic as the big networks.


5. ROUTING REGISTRY ARCHITECTURES

Canceled due to the absence of Daniel KARRENBERG.


6. D-GIX ISSUES, A COMMON INTERFACE BETWEEN NSPs.

At this time the only routing technology that runs fine is based on
routers. But now, there is a need for a more efficient and flexible 
technology, in particular the D-GIX.

If you have a global exchange routing point you can change from one service 
provider to the other without spending too much money. Also, the route 
service has to act on the level two to allow source routing . But it is 
possible to overcome this drawback by putting a router on an ethernet with 
the ability to talk to other routers on the same ethernet. That way is used
in Stockholm with five differents services providers and it is planned to be 
the same in Paris. The drawback of this configuration is that many people 
have to be contacted for any change in the configuration.




7. CIDR AGGREGATION OF LARGER BLOCKS

	The CIDR aggregation had permit to reduce the size of the routing 
tables. These aggregations were usually made by the regional service provider 
but now the internet is facing a new increase in the size of the routing 
table. To be more efficient this aggregation should be done at a higher 
level. 

For example, we know that the networks numbers from193.x.x.x to 194.x.x.x 
are dedicated to europe and on the other end the networks numbers from 
198.x.x.x to 199.x.x.x are dedicated to the US. So, it seems to be possible 
to announce these routes with only four routes, but how ?

The problem is under discussion but we need good suggestions.

The route server cannot do any aggregation.

We could renumber and by this way have as much routes as AS number (around 600).


8. EOF CHARTER

SB: The EOF report should be sent also to the ripe-list to overcome the 
limitation of the eof-list.

PL: The Internet is not only a US infracstructure so the EOF should be the 
European equivalent of the IEPG.

FG: The EOF should act as a European part of the IEPG.

FG: The words "Internet-related networking services" in the chapter 
"Open Membership" should be replace by "ip-service".

FG: Also the sentence with "... touristic or educational interests ..." 
should be rephrased.

FG: It will be better to separate the historical notes.



NEXT AGENDA (needs suggestions)

Election of a new Chairman.
PL will stay chairman until the next meeting, meanwhile every proposition 
for a new chairman are welcome.

TROUBLE TICKET HANDLING
Touble management Procedure, use AS number, use prt.traceroute, ...

INTERNET MAP
How to draw the world starting from a router AS table.

Next meeting
12 September 1994, from 9 to 12,30 in Lisbon just before the next ripe meeting.