Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting

[Andrew Stesin <]

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:

> >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE
> >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree
> A>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> A> 	"Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"!  How can RIPE
> A> 	establish a RIR without an agreement in the community
> A> 	of the region served?  RIR creation should be
> A> 	initiated by the representative community, not RIPE,
> A> 	or am I missing something?
> 
> Quite right. The community does exist
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  Would you mind providing a proof
	of validity for this statement?

[... region definition ...]
> I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it
> frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition.

	I don't like the definition above because we live today,
	looking for tomorrow, and "fSU" is the term from yesterday
	("historical").  Who cares today about yesteday' mess?

> A> 	Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine?
> A> 	Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra".
> A> 	1:1
> 
> It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	What a nice news! ;)  If say I wasn't present there
	physically, what the Decision' text could look like?
	Note: the text of the projected Decision of Moscow
	meeting wasn't published
	electronicaly and open for discussion!

> was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they
> sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data --
> let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if
> I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries.

	Neither you nor me didn't get things right, because the documents
	(both ripe-167 and the Decision) are *very* unclear at
	this point and who knows where truth might be?

> A> 	ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its
> A> 	main ideas in a moment.
> 
> Well, it was available for far more time than a moment.

	... and nobody cared starting polishing it until Moscow
	meeting.  And nobody even cared to translate it
	to Russian so far.

> A> 	I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain
> A> 	at this point.
> 
> Maybe. For that case there are its authors able to clarify details.

	I'd like to see *the* document which is independent of
	any personalities (who may or may not change
	their opinions in time) and spoken opinions.

[...]
> >> If you suppose uniting of
> >> everybody but us,

	*You* said this; I didn't.

> >> that sounds a bit odd, does not it?

[...]

> >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare
> >> free choice for all.
> 
> A> 	Would you mind pointing me at the written document where
> A> 	one can get a clear and certain statement of this?
> 
> Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter.

	Ghmm.

> >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are
> >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than
> >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
> 
> A> 	Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian
> A> 	language.  If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you
> A> 	ought to know English, point.  If you don't know
> A> 	English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff
> A> 	is more knowlegeable.
> 
> A> 	Agreed?
> 
> No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know
> English.

	*This* statement of yours is plain wrong.  Getting connected doesn't
	nessesary mean one should go learn English;

> You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and
> nothing will change.

	... but those who serves people' connections *must* know
	English otherwise how can they perform their job?

	Please don't mix customer and provider, also LIR isn't
	just average provider; it's the next level of skills
	and experience, in general.

> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Sergey A. Mukhin			|    violet@localhost
> >> Network Administrator		|    http://violet.rosnet.net/
> >> Russian Telecommunications Network	|    Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
> >> Moscow, Russia			|	  + 7 095 755 85 88
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *     If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly.     *
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best regards,
Andrew Stesin

nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE