Draft minutes from 29 January EOF meeting, v1

Hi,

please find attached below the draft minutes from the 29th
January EOF meeting in Amsterdam.  Sorry it's taken so long to
get this out.  Comments and corrections to me, please.

Regards,

- Håvard
                                                                -*- Text -*-

European Operators Forum

Minutes of the 8th EOF meeting                          Havard Eidnes

Held at NIKHEF, Amsterdam, Monday 29 Jan 1996           NORDUnet
                                                        23 Feb 1996 v1 (draft)

------------------------------


Participants:

Randy Bush		YMBK			randy@localhost
Harm Werkman		Unisource	      werkman@localhost
Michel Colin		ULB/STC			colin@localhost
Stef van Dessel         INNET                   stef@localhost
Lazlo Fekete		Westel 900 GSM		feketel@localhost
Ivan Sedinic		HPT - Croatian PTT	ivan.sedinic@localhost
Zsolt Szalacsi		Westel 900 GSM
Erzsebet Erdei		Westel 900 GSM		erdeie@localhost
Guy Davies		Unipalm Pipex		guyd@localhost
Dodescu Aliner		Research Institute for Informatics
Alexandre Krivine	Skyworld		akrivine@localhost
Sabine Jaume		RENATER			jaume@localhost
Maris-Helene Guilmin	RENATER			gilmin@localhost
Pulak Rakshit           Cable Online            pulakr@localhost
Javed Mirza             Cable Online            jav@localhost
Helena Svensson		Tele2			helena@localhost
Jon Pieter		XS4ALL
Cor Bosman		XS4ALL			cor@localhost
Hakan Hansson		Unisource BN		hh@localhost
Per Mattsson		Unisource BN		per@localhost
Paul Rolland		Oleane			rol@localhost
Havard Eidnes		NORDUnet/Uninett	Havard.Eidnes@localhost
Hans Petter HOlen	Schibsted Nett		hph@localhost
Kurt Kayser		ECRC			kurt@localhost
Lars-Johan Liman	Ebone NOC		liman@localhost
Mike Norris		HEAnet			mnorris@localhost
Barbara Dooley		CIX			bdooley@localhost
Avgust Jauk		ARNES			jauk@localhost
Daniele Bovio		AOL			bovio@localhost
Mark Cawley		PostGEM			cawleym@localhost
Paddy O'Farrell		PostGEM			ofarrellp@localhost
Rudiger Volk		Deutsche Telekom
Boris Belousov		PVT a.s.		belousov@localhost
Keith Mitchell		UUNET Pipex International	keith@localhost
Janos Zsako		BankNet			zsako@localhost
Rushdul Mannan		Xara Networks Ltd.	rm@localhost
Janos Bajza		HUNGARNET		bajza@localhost
Frank Slyne		Telecom Ireland		fslyne@localhost
Dirk Pantring		DE-NIC			pantring@localhost
Sabine Dolderer		DE-NIC			dolderer@localhost
Arnold Nipper		NTG/Xlink		nipper@localhost
Job Witteman		FTNS NL			job.witteman@localhost
Mariusz Ostrowski	NASK			mariusz@localhost
Wilfried Woeber		VUCC/ACOnet		woeber@localhost
Philip Bridge		Unisource Switzerland
Graca Carvalho		RCCN/FCCN		graca@localhost
Armando Domingues	RCCN/FCCN		armando@localhost
Giles Todd		Demon Internet		gt@localhost
Ivan Communod		FTNS NL			ivan.communod@localhost
Stephan Bisbroeck	BELNET			
Francis Dupont		INRIA			Francis.Dupont@localhost
Sean Doran		US Sprint		smd@localhost
Geert Jan deGroot	RIPE NCC		GeertJan.deGroot@localhost
Peter Lothberg		STUPI			roll@localhost
Elise Gerich		Merit			epg@localhost

------------------------------

1. Welcome

   Peter Lothberg (PL) welcomed everyone to the meeting.


2. Agenda bashing

   No additions to the agenda were proposed.


3. Minute taker

   HE volunteered.


4. Aplogies

   None received.


5. Previous minutes

   No comments were presented.  The previous minutes were approved.


6. Status updates of interconnect points

   PL invited updates on
    o Status
    o WWW info availability

   Stockholm D-GIX

	Changes since last time: about to expand geographical coverage
	of the D-GIX via fiber cables provided by Stokab, providing
	D-GIX functionality at carrier colocate facilities.  Locating
	equipment at KTH remains possible.

	Web pointer: http://www.sunet.se/dgix/

   French GIX

	The main model is still that France Telecom owns and manages
	customer routers connected to the interconnect point.  The
	interconnect is a shared ethernet, and FT charges 50K FFR a
	year for this service.

	A new offer is currently being provided where each ISP can
	rent rack space and house and manage their own router
	connected to the IX.  Prices for this service are not yet
	available.

	The shared ethernet will be replaced by switched ethernet,
	possibly interconnected switches with fast ethernet
	(100baseT).  All customer connections are for the immediate
	future foreseen to remain at 10 Mbit/s ethernet speed.

	Web information available from
		http://www.urec.fr/Renater/gix/gix1000.html (french)
	and	http://www.urec.fr/Renater/gix/gixangl.html (english)

   LINX

	There are now 17 connected providers.  Recent activities
	include formalizing the organizational matters of the LINX.
	For 1995-1996 the fees are 5000 GBP/year plus 5000 GBP in
	startup fee.  The LINX is currently housed in three racks
	housing respectively telco equpment, routers and switches.
	The LINX is located at Telehouse in London.

	Techincally the LINX is implemented with two Cisco Catalyst
	switches interconnected with FDDI.  Currently there is no
	switching of >10Mbit/s medium, they are currently looking at
	alternatives (FDDI or 100Mbit/s switched ethernet), and are
	wondering whether 100Mbit/s ether is a good idea.  Peter
	Lothberg commented that "In theory, it's not a good idea", and
	referred to that the Digital GigaSwitch can throttle a sender
	under congestion by temporarily "stealing" the token, thus
	pushing the requirement for buffering back at the connected
	router.

	The LINX is not to be used for providing transit service,
	however private "backdoor" connections can be established in
	the same physical facility should that be required.

	Web pages are available from

		http://www.linx.net/

   Moscow

	Implemented with an ethernet switch.  The fee for connecting
	is approx. 200 USD/month, the policy is "bring (and manage)
	your own box".

   Oslo

	The Norwegian Internet eXchange (NIX) in Oslo has been in
	operation since April 1993.  It currently connects 7 different
	service providers, most of them providers with norwegian
	coverage of their services.  The current implementation is an
	ethernet switch.  No web information is currently available.

   Exchange points in Munich, Portugal, Ljubljana and Prague were also
   briefly mentioned.  Either there was no new information (the three
   first (?)) or the exchange point was yet to be fully established
   (Prague).

   Updated web pointers were solicited for those currently lacking
   these.


7. European issues for NANOG

   PL would attend NANOG in San Diego 15-16 February, and solicited
   input.  No input appeared.


8. Filtering of prefixes (routes)

   As most know by now, US Sprint has imposed prefix length filtering
   in certain network blocks.  Specifically, US Sprint will not admit
   prefixes longer than 18 bits in the address space 207.0.0.0/8 and
   208.0.0.0/8.  The same kind of filtering is set up for 195.0.0.0/8.
   This will soon start to impact the european service providers who
   are allocated address space out of this block.  In particular, this
   conflicts with the RIPE policy of only allocating a /19 prefix to
   new registries until a usage rate has been established.

   While routing is a slightly separate issue from allocation of
   address space, the obvious for a newly established service provider
   would be to announce his /19 block with routing, and if he has
   addresses in the 195.0.0.0/8 block he will not be able to
   communicate with customers of US Sprint.

   Sean Doran explained that the same limit has been set for 195 as
   for 207 and 208 on the grounds of consistency, and that if that
   should change a solid explanation has to be presented.

   Daniel Karrenberg suggested that as long as the number of routes in
   195.0.0.0/18 remains below 1024, US Sprint should allow /19
   prefixes in this block.  This has the obvious problem that if this
   target is not met, people who were earlier able to communicate with
   US Sprint using a /19 prefix would be blocked when the limit had to
   be raised to only accepting /18 and shorter prefixes.  Also, the
   RIPE NCC cannot give any guarantees that the number of routes in
   this block will remain fewer than 1024, as it has no way to apply
   force towards the service providers.

   [I must admit I didn't catch any conclusion here, if there was any]


9. Renumbering

   Peter Lothberg did a presentation written by Yakov Rekhter on
   renumbering.  The essence was that *some* need to renumber, and
   some current and near-future techniques for assisting in
   renumbering were mentioned: DHCP, Dynamic DNS update, Graceful host
   renumbering (interface aliases) and use of NATs (Network Address
   Translators), ALGs (Application-Layer Gateways), SOCKS (essentially
   IP tunnelling (?)) etc.

   It was also mentioned that IPv6 with the current routing schemes
   proposed has essentially the same problems as IPv4 in this area:
   renumbering will in some cases have to be performed to permit
   sufficient scaling of the Internet routing architecture.  [Ed.:
   some claim that the auto-renumber hooks in IPv6 solve this problem,
   while other think it merely is a modest assistance in the matter.]


10. Aggregation of CIDR blocks cross-Atlantic

   This was merely briefly mentioned as a possibility, and that it
   "may be possible".  [This remains to be seen, though.]


11. Internet World Fair / Internet Railroad

   The "Internet World Fair" is basically "like a world fair, but on
   the net".  Anyone may put up their own "pavillion" on this
   exposition.  To support this initiative an "Intetnet Railroad"
   network is being built.  It's topology will be approximately as
   sketched here (sorry 'bout the ASCII graphics, it's all I can do
   with this medium, though...):


   Seoul------Tokyo----------Washington DC----- New York
		!   			           !
		!   			           !
		!   			           !
	      Taiwan			           !
	       				           !
	      				        Stockholm------Helsinki
					          /!\ \       	    !
					         /   \ \      	    !
					        /  !  \ \     	    !
					       /       \ \    	    !
					      /    !    \ \    St.Petersburg
					     / 	    	 \ \  	      !
					  London   !	  \ \
						       Paris \	      !
        				      Amsterdam    Munich
   								      !

								      !
								    Moscow
   The "sparsely dotted" lines are a little uncertain.

   All the lines will be either T3 or E3.

   There will be an AUP for this network, and that is that usage of
   the network should be "good for the Internet".  There will be a
   number of servers scattered about on this network.  Quite
   substantial amounts of sponsorship has been gathered for the
   project, among others for bandwidth and for disk space -- Quantum
   has donated 1TB of disk drives to the project.

   More information is available from: http://park.org/


12. Any other business

   None.


13. Next meeting

   In conjunction with the next RIPE meeting, i.e. 22 April in Berlin.

   Meeting ajourned.