EOF-8 meeting minutes, v2
- Date: Thu, 02 Nov 1995 14:25:08 +0100
Hi,
I've received a few corrections to the minutes sent out. This is
thus a second circulation of the draft before I send it to the
RIPE general mailing list (which will happen shortly if there are
no further comments, I promise!). Attached you will also find
the changes made since last time.
Regards,
- Håvard
-*- Text -*-
European Operators Forum
Minutes of the 8th EOF meeting Havard Eidnes
Held at NIKHEF, Amsterdam, Wednesday 11 Oct 1995 NORDUnet
02 Nov 1995 v2 (draft)
------------------------------
Participants:
Peter Lothberg STUPI/EBONE roll@localhost
Bohumila Mullern CESnet bk@localhost
Petr Kral CESnet pkl@localhost
Christian Panigl UniVie/ACOnet panigl@localhost
Benoit Grange NIC France Benoit.Grange@localhost
Francis Dupont INRIA Francis.Dupont@localhost
Avgust Jauk ARNES jauk@localhost
Denise Heagerty CERN denise@localhost
Wilfried Wober UniVie/ACOnet woeber@localhost
Magnus Danielson KTH/IT magdan@localhost
Nigel Titley BT Nigel.Titley@localhost
Berislav Todoavovic YUnet beri@localhost
Havard Eidnes Uninett/NORDUnet he@localhost
Jan-Olof Jemnemo Telia Integration Jan-Olof.Jemnemo@localhost
Lars-Johan Liman EBONE NOC liman@localhost
Paolo Bevilacqua UniNet pab@localhost
Kevin Hoadley JANET/ULCC kevin@localhost
Yves Devillers EUnet-France Yves.Devillers@localhost
Willi Huber SWITCH huber@localhost
Denis Curran Tel.Ireland dcurran@localhost
Mauro Magrassi Unisource mauro.magrassi@localhost
Keith Mitchell PIPEX keith@localhost
Dimitris Vassardanis Hellas On Line, GR dimitri@localhost
Pulak Rakshit Cable Online pulakr@localhost
Javed Mirza Cable Online jav@localhost
David Kessens RIPE NCC david@localhost
Hatue Kuey RIPE NCC kuey@localhost
Barbara Dooley Dimension EN bdooley@localhost
Mike Norris HEAnet mnorris@localhost
Geert Jan de Groot RIPE NCC GeertJan.deGroot@localhost
Eric Wassenaar NIKHEF e07@localhost
Hakan Hansson Unisource hh@localhost
Philip Bridge Unisource bridge@localhost
Harm Werhman Unisource werhman@localhost
Annie Renard NIC France Annie.Renard@localhost
Franck Pradal France Telecom pradal@localhost
Thierry Scortatore France Telecom scorti@localhost
Eva Ptackova SPT Telecom -
David Hujer SPT Telecom -
Krzysztof Dzimigata NASK krzych@localhost
Ireneusz Neska NASK irek@localhost
Istvan Csaky ISYS Hungary csaky@localhost
Steve Bakker DANTE steven@localhost
Henk Steenman SURFnet henk.steenman@localhost
Oliver Suitl Demon oliver@localhost
Armando Domingues FCCN/RCCN armando@localhost
Graca Carvalho FCCN/RCCN graca@localhost
Daniele Bovio AOL bovio@localhost
Mirjam Kuhne RIPE NCC mir@localhost
Anne Lord PIPEX International annel@localhost
Guy Davies Unipalm Pipex guyd@localhost
Hans Axen France Telecom haax@localhost
Hans Petter Holen Oslonett hph@localhost
Peder Chr. Norgaard Telebit Comm. pan@localhost
Serge Nikiphorov NPI MSU serg@localhost
Jaroslav Bobovsky SANET bobovsky@localhost
Klaus Landefeld NACAMAR laudi@localhost
Janos Zsako BankNet zsako@localhost
Michael Behringer DANTE mb@localhost
Erik-Jan Bos SURFnet Erik-Jan.Bos@localhost
Stef van Dessel INNET stef@localhost
Roderik Muit RIPE NCC roderik@localhost
------------------------------
1. Welcome
PL welcomed everyone to the meeting.
2. Agenda bashing
A point on "national EOF-like ogranizations" was added under AOB.
3. Appointment of minute taker
HE volunteered to take the minutes.
4. Apologies
None received.
5. Previous minutes
The minutes had an unfortunate typo in them, two words were missing
("Republic of" ahead of "South Africa"). The modified minutes will
be circulated. With this suggested change the minutes were
approved.
6. Status of European Interconnect Points
(See also table at end of these minutes.)
o LINX (London)
There has been 2 LINX meetings since the last EOF meeting, and as
a result there has been produced a new MOU and new procedures for
the operation of the LINX. These documents are available at
http://www.linx.net/linx.html. There are currently 13 members at
the LINX, including IBM Advantis, Sprint International and Planet
Online amont the "international service providers". None of the
providers have connections to the LINX at lower rates than 256
kbit/s, several of the members have multi-T1 connections there.
So far this exchange point has been growing relatively quickly.
Currently the yearly fee for a connection to the LINX is at 5000
GBP, and there is an additional connection fee. This fee gives
access to 8U of 19" rack space (approx. enough for a Cisco 7010).
To connect to the LINX there is a requirement to have an
independent connetion to the US with appropriate transit
agreements over that path.
The technology used is 2 x Cisco Catalyst connected via ethernet.
FDDI is seen as the natural next step, while FDDI switches have
so far been deemed too expensive, and the LINX is looking for
equipment sponsorship in this area. A possible alternative
technology is "fast ethernet".
The LINX is housed at Telehouse, a company specializing in
facility management. It was clearly seen as an advantage that
the facility was neither under the control of a single PTT and
that the facility owners are not actors in the Internet service
provider market.
o F-GIX (Paris)
The contact persons for this site did not show up at the meeting
due to flight delays, so this item was dropped.
o D-GIX (Stockholm)
Currently has 15 members. There seems to be a new request for a
connection each 4th day...
The rules for connecting is "bring your box and your own
bandwidth". Technology used: FDDI or Ethernet with Ethernet
switches). There is currently no housing fee, and the equipment
used to implement the D-GIX is funded by the government. 24x7
coverage can be bought (but not from KTH). KTH is looking at
housing servers (eg. WWW servers) as well, and will hopefully
have a proposal ready before end 1995.
There is an initiative underway to make it possible to hook up to
the D-GIX at other places in Stockholm as well, ie. to extend the
D-GIX over dark fiber.
WWW access for further information: http://www.sunet.se/dgix/
o Cern (Geneva)
Denise Heagerty presented the CERN Internet exchange point
(CIXP). It currently is an FDDI ring with connections to CERN
(local access), EBONE (4Mbit/s), SWITCH (8Mbit/s), HEPnet and in
addition an end of a connection to InternetMCI (managed by CERN,
for use by other participants in this US line's consortium), the
Geneva MAN (where Telecom'95 is connected over ATM) and the ATM
Pilot (ATM connection via routers connected to the ring).
The details of terms and conditions have yet to be finalized,
however the following was said: Cost-wise the intention is to
cover the real cost (ie. not make a profit). The policy is
"bring your box", rack space is available (8U?), there is 24x7
operator coverage and the installation *is* up and running during
christmas as well (before 2 years ago this would not have been
the case, but that is fixed now).
More information will be available at
http://wwwcs.cern.ch/wwwcs/publicip/cixp.html
o Amsterdam
Erik-Jan Bos presented the Amsterdam Internet Exchange (AIE).
This exchange point is currently implemented with a "yellow cable
ethernet" spanning the buildings at CWI. Access is currently
free. The plans forward are to
- upgrade the technology to switched FDDI
- provide access at more than one physical location, provide
interconnection between the FDDI switches initially at E3
rate (34 Mbit/s).
Ethernet connections will however continue to be available.
Possible locations for the extended AIE:
Kruislaan (CWI)
Drentestraat (PTT POP)
Overschiestraat (BT POP)
The bandwidth to be used between these locations are planned
purchased from "cheap sources", there are several options
available.
Target date for installation of upgrade is Q1 1996. For more
information see
http://www.nic.surfnet.nl/surfnet/persons/bos/aie.html
The price for connections to the new exchange have not yet been
decided on. When asked, the model for financing the interconnect
capacity between the physical locations seemed a little unclear.
There will however be a monthly fee.
Current connected parties:
CWI: EUnet, NLnet
NIKHEF: RIPE NCC, EBONE
SARA: DANTE, SURFnet
Possibly coming: Unisource Business Networks, AT&T.
SURFnet will try to produce traffic statistics in the style of
the statistics from the MAE-East and MAE-West exchanges.
o Italy
There is an operational exchange point in Rome using shared
ethernet and "bring your box" policy. The details will be
presented during the RIPE plenary and were not further discussed
at this meeting. For more info see http://black.uni.net/.
o FICIX
None present to talk about this. Do however see the table below
for updated information received after the meeting. The FICIX
medium was upgraded in August 1995 to switched ethernet, and they
are looking for alternatives for faster technology as well.
Traffic statistics are being collected, though it appears it's
being collected with SNMP from the routers and not by "sniffing
the wire." See http://www.eunet.fi/ipstats/ for statistics.
o Portugal
There is an operational exchange point in Portugal, "PIX", and it
recently became operational (two days ago at the meeting). There
are currently four parties connected:
- RCCN
- EUnet PT
- IP Global
- Telepac (IP service)
Currently this is done as a 6 months experiment. The exchange is
implemented using an ethernet switch, and the cost of the
equipment is shared among the parties connected. The facility is
housed at RCCN, and they do not have 24x7 operator coverage.
There are not being collected any traffic statistics at this
exchange point.
o Ireland
Plans an exchange point (DINX - Data InterNet eXchange) based on
the LINX model. Target date for installation is end 1995. Cost:
simple cost recovery, GBP 1000-2000 / year / connection.
Technology: shared ether -> switched ether -> FDDI. The policy
will be "bring your box". There will be performed statistics
gathering, presumably "summarized" before external consumption.
They are thinking of "server housing" as part of this.
There has been a RFP out for getting housing for this facility, 7
proposals are in and the evaluation will start shortly.
Further info will be available at http://www.dinx.ie/dinx.
7. Experience of BGP flap dampening
Earlier this year a severe problem was hitting "centrally placed"
Cisco routers: there were too many route changes ("route flaps")
for the 68k CPUs in Cisco 7000 routers to be able to process the
routing updates in a timely manner, and CPU overload on these
routers was a large concern. An estimate showed that approximately
10-16% of the Internet was made unreachable due to slow convergence
of routes due to these flaps. Curtiz Villamizar of ANS had
proposed a mechanism to deal with this problem, and Cisco has
implemented a variant of this proposal. The proposal basically is
to detect which prefixes (routes) are changing frequently, and
dampen the propagation rate of new routing updates for these
routes. This is enabled with
!
router bgp xxx
bgp dampen
!
on Cisco routers. Note that this only dampens route propagation on
external peers. At the time of the meeting this feature was only
available in "special" Cisco images, later versions of 11.0 however
now have this feature.
Each flap entry consumes approximately 16 bytes memory, and there
will be one entry for each flapping route. The CPU impact is "not
much" (probably decreases CPU utilization overall due to the flap
dampening).
8. Use of BGP DPA community for multihomed sites
Tony Bates and Enke Chen of MCI have drafted a proposal for a new
BGP path attribute called "destination preference attribute" (DPA).
The goal is to be able to avoid the currently "heavy" coordination
needed to set up routing for multi-homed providers, so that a
multi-homed provider can use the routing protocol mechanisms to
specify "primary", "secondary" etc. paths to all downstream ASes.
The proposal calls for placing the evaluation of the DPA between
MED and AS path length comparison in the BGP route selection
process, ie. AS path length may be overridden by this attribute.
Thus, to be able to use this an upgrade of the software of *all*
transit service providers' routers is required (so that routing
loops can be avoided).
Note, this is currently only a proposal, no code is available yet.
9. Report from NANOG
Dropped due to time constraints.
10. Peering policy proposed for EBONE
The EBONE Management Committee has proposed a revised peering
policy. The revised policy says essentially:
If you have 1 connection point to EBONE, you will be
considered a customer of EBONE, and will have to pay the full
price of a customer connection to set up peering.
If you have 2 connection points to EBONE, the fee for setting
up peering will be 1/2 of the customer connection fee.
If you have 3 or more connection points to EBONE peering with
EBONE can be established at no cost.
The time scale for implementing this policy is to start in 1996
with full implementation from 1997.
HE commented that this looks like it is intended to increase the
"customer base" of EBONE. PL contested that and instead said that
it was set up to easily and efficiently support the interconnection
of EBONE with other international service providers in Europe.
11. European update
At this point lunch was fast approaching, so only short updates
were given.
o Dante
Changed network service provider from Unisource to BT
o EMPB
Died, replaced with IBDNS provided by BT
o EUnet
A new trans-atlantic connection will come up FI-US (New York),
partly with the connections to Russia in mind.
o Ebone
Still not dead, new EBS in Amsterdam connected with 4Mbit/s.
Currently 35-40 customers and still growing.
o BT
Nothing to add (now operates IBDNS, see above).
o Pipex
Transatlantic capacity upgraded from 5.5Mbit/s to 6.3Mbit/s.
Connection to Ghana up and running. New connections to CZ,
HK, Malta, Macau. There is work going on to migrate backbone
in Europe to a "shared infrastructure".
o Unisource
Operating in SE, CH, NL. Looking at alternatives for
interconnection.
12. EOF marketing
PL expressed the view that the EOF should be more active in bringing
startup Internet service providers on-board, and wanted input on how
to achieve that. Since funds are typically strained in the startups,
this could possibly be achieved through forming local (national?)
EOF-like bodies. A remark was made that these need to be open for
all participants.
13. AOB
DNS registration issues (eg. latest InterNIC action) pushed to DNS WG
due to time constraints.
A remark was made that there is a need for distinguishing between
"helpdesk" and "technical contact" in the RIPE database. It is
becoming increasingly difficult to get past the "first-line defenses"
of service providers to get timely action to solve real technical
problems. This will be pushed to the RIPE DB WG.
14. Next meeting
Default: just ahead of the next RIPE meeting.
Meeting ajourned.
------------------------------
Table of european internet exchanges.
Year conn. Web Tech Future Stats Bring own
cost nets info impl tech Space v box? Location
London 5000GBP 13 Y Eth-S 100Mb/s 8U 19" N Yes FM Telehouse
Paris 50K FFR 4 N Ether Ether-S C-4000 N No FM FR Telecom
Cern Ask 4(3) Y FDDI Ask Y Yes FM Cern
Amsterdam Ask 6 Y Ether FDDI-S Ask Y Yes FM SARA/NIKHEF
Roma 0 5 Y Ether Ether-S Yes(?) Y Yes FM CASPUR
Helsinki 24k FIM 5 N Eth-S open 8U 19" Y Yes FM EUnet
Portugal Modest 4 N Eth-S 8U 19" N Yes FM RCCN
Dublin 1-2 KECU (6) Y Ask Y Yes FM nn
Stockholm 0 16 Y E-S/F-S TAXI 8U 19" N Yes FM KTH
Munich Ask 3 N Ether Ether-S Ask N Yes FM ECRC
Moscow9 Ask 6 N Ether Ask ? Yes FM M9 PTT stn
Pisa 0 3 N FDDI N Yes
Milan Ask 3 N Ether Ask N Yes FM Cilea
*** 1.2 1995/10/25 13:12:02
--- eof-8.txt 1995/11/02 13:21:54
***************
*** 1,10 ****
! -*- Text -*-
European Operators Forum
! Minutes of the 8th EOF meeting Havard Eidnes
! Held at NIKHEF, Amsterdam, Wednesday 11 Oct 1995 NORDUnet
! 25 Oct 1995 v1 (draft)
------------------------------
--- 1,10 ----
! -*- Text -*-
European Operators Forum
! Minutes of the 8th EOF meeting Havard Eidnes
! Held at NIKHEF, Amsterdam, Wednesday 11 Oct 1995 NORDUnet
! 02 Nov 1995 v2 (draft)
------------------------------
***************
*** 55,59 ****
Ireneusz Neska NASK irek@localhost
Istvan Csaky ISYS Hungary csaky@localhost
! Steve StBakker DANTE steven@localhost
Henk Steenman SURFnet henk.steenman@localhost
Oliver Suitl Demon oliver@localhost
--- 55,59 ----
Ireneusz Neska NASK irek@localhost
Istvan Csaky ISYS Hungary csaky@localhost
! Steve Bakker DANTE steven@localhost
Henk Steenman SURFnet henk.steenman@localhost
Oliver Suitl Demon oliver@localhost
***************
*** 144,149 ****
o F-GIX (Paris)
! None of the responsible people were present, so this item was
! dropped.
o D-GIX (Stockholm)
--- 144,149 ----
o F-GIX (Paris)
! The contact persons for this site did not show up at the meeting
! due to flight delays, so this item was dropped.
o D-GIX (Stockholm)
***************
*** 241,245 ****
o FICIX
! None present to talk about this.
o Portugal
--- 241,251 ----
o FICIX
! None present to talk about this. Do however see the table below
! for updated information received after the meeting. The FICIX
! medium was upgraded in August 1995 to switched ethernet, and they
! are looking for alternatives for faster technology as well.
! Traffic statistics are being collected, though it appears it's
! being collected with SNMP from the routers and not by "sniffing
! the wire." See http://www.eunet.fi/ipstats/ for statistics.
o Portugal
***************
*** 275,279 ****
proposals are in and the evaluation will start shortly.
! Further info will be available at http://www.dinx.ie/.
--- 281,285 ----
proposals are in and the evaluation will start shortly.
! Further info will be available at http://www.dinx.ie/dinx.
***************
*** 389,393 ****
startup Internet service providers on-board, and wanted input on how
to achieve that. Since funds are typically strained in the startups,
! this could possibly be acheived through forming local (national?)
EOF-like bodies. A remark was made that these need to be open for
all participants.
--- 395,399 ----
startup Internet service providers on-board, and wanted input on how
to achieve that. Since funds are typically strained in the startups,
! this could possibly be achieved through forming local (national?)
EOF-like bodies. A remark was made that these need to be open for
all participants.
***************
*** 420,428 ****
London 5000GBP 13 Y Eth-S 100Mb/s 8U 19" N Yes FM Telehouse
! Paris 50K FFR 4 N Ether N No Lease
Cern Ask 4(3) Y FDDI Ask Y Yes FM Cern
Amsterdam Ask 6 Y Ether FDDI-S Ask Y Yes FM SARA/NIKHEF
Roma 0 5 Y Ether Ether-S Yes(?) Y Yes FM CASPUR
! Helsinki Ask 4 N FDDI Ask ? Yes FM/WAN
Portugal Modest 4 N Eth-S 8U 19" N Yes FM RCCN
Dublin 1-2 KECU (6) Y Ask Y Yes FM nn
--- 426,434 ----
London 5000GBP 13 Y Eth-S 100Mb/s 8U 19" N Yes FM Telehouse
! Paris 50K FFR 4 N Ether Ether-S C-4000 N No FM FR Telecom
Cern Ask 4(3) Y FDDI Ask Y Yes FM Cern
Amsterdam Ask 6 Y Ether FDDI-S Ask Y Yes FM SARA/NIKHEF
Roma 0 5 Y Ether Ether-S Yes(?) Y Yes FM CASPUR
! Helsinki 24k FIM 5 N Eth-S open 8U 19" Y Yes FM EUnet
Portugal Modest 4 N Eth-S 8U 19" N Yes FM RCCN
Dublin 1-2 KECU (6) Y Ask Y Yes FM nn
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