From Sean at Jackson.TC Fri Nov 6 00:34:32 1998 From: Sean at Jackson.TC (Sean Jackson) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:34:32 -0000 Subject: EC ready for domain name reform Message-ID: <000a01be0914$d8921200$0b0699c3@thorin.william.org> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28395,00.html?owv God Bless You, Sean Sean Jackson, 3 Adams Road, Cambridge, CB3 9AD, United Kingdom. Tel: 01223 464 800 Fax: 0171 681 1268 -------- Logged at Mon Nov 30 16:01:46 MET 1998 --------- From joao at ripe.net Mon Nov 30 16:00:58 1998 From: joao at ripe.net (Joao Luis Silva Damas) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:00:58 +0100 Subject: Ripe change to whois In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:08:27 +0100. <19981130150827.B19082@nuss.hannover.sgh-net.de> References: <19981130150827.B19082@nuss.hannover.sgh-net.de> Message-ID: <199811301500.QAA23134@x41.ripe.net> Hello. I am including the tld-wg into this discussion so as to make sure all involved parties are aware of the discussion. Alexander Koch writes: * Hello. * * > The design of this feature was specified some time ago by Carol Orange and * * > Wilfried Woeber (please see http://www.ripe.net/meetings/ripe/ripe-27/pres * /rout * > e/referral/) and discussed in the RIPE db-wg mailing list (please see * > http://www.ripe.net/mail-archives/db-wg/19970501-19970601/threads.html) * * Oh. Fine. Do I get it right that this was discussed and agreed on * more than a year ago? Argh. * Yes, indeed. We had a period where we have been late with developments. That period is now behind us. * This change breaks too many things, imnsho, and it seems again that if * you are not able to make it to the RIPE meetings, you have lost. A * special announce would have been most helpful (an explicit one, stating * this). * But, we did... or so I thought. We'll look into more ways of getting this announcements across while trying to minimize the mails sent to people who don't care about this. This particular feature has been actively asked for by the ccTLD adninistrators and seen as a good thing by everyone I have had a chance to speak with. These are actually the first complaints about it we have got so far. * > As a side note I would like to stress that the RIPE Database is NOT the so * urce * > of authoritative data for domain objects (although we are happy to provide * a * > repository for TLD administrators). * > This is UNLIKE the internic whose business is to sell names. * * Oh. Fine. whois.nic.de *cough* barely ever working... Weak argument. * And If I wanted to know the data about the domain one level higher, * I can do so myself, I don't need to get it told to me by whois, I * want to know whether crab.de (bad example, it really exists) is in * the DB already or not. I am sorry but I can't talk about the availability of services we don't operate. I am sure you can look up domains yourself but this was actually seen as providing the users (specially the ones less familiar with the RIPE DB) with help on where to find the correct information. It seems to me that over time people have developed a sense that the RIPE DB is the authoritative source of information regarding domain names in Europe. May be this issue should be up for debate now. As a matter of fact the referral mechanism was seen as a way for ccTLD administrators to include information in the Database pointing to their own authoritative sources of information. * * > The RIPE NCC is therefore acting according to users directives that were * > discussed and agreed on an open way. * * Hitchhiker's Guide, anyone? *sigh* ??? * * This was a not-so-nice change, really. Consider this a statement of * disagreement with the way the change took place. Ok, one more mailling * list to follow... Time to sell. Will do so. As I said before, we will keep modifying and developing the RIPE DB software and in particular this feature if users feel that is what they want. We will also provide our point view. I would like to have the input of the community. Regards, Joao * * Regards, * Alexander Koch * * -- * SGH Internet Division, Alexander Koch, Systems Administration * Hannover, Germany, Phone +49 511 909198 0, Fax +49 511 391307 * -------- Logged at Mon Nov 30 16:15:12 MET 1998 --------- From hank at ibm.net.il Mon Nov 30 16:14:44 1998 From: hank at ibm.net.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:14:44 +0200 Subject: Ripe change to whois Message-ID: <2.2.32.19981130151444.006f4948@max.ibm.net.il> At 04:00 PM 11/30/98 +0100, Joao Luis Silva Damas wrote: Just check http://www.checkdomain.com with some nonexistant domain housed at RIPE and tell me if something isn't wrong here. -Hank >Hello. > >I am including the tld-wg into this discussion so as to make sure all involved >parties are aware of the discussion. > > Alexander Koch writes: > * Hello. > * > * > The design of this feature was specified some time ago by Carol Orange and > * > * > Wilfried Woeber (please see http://www.ripe.net/meetings/ripe/ripe-27/pres > * /rout > * > e/referral/) and discussed in the RIPE db-wg mailing list (please see > * > http://www.ripe.net/mail-archives/db-wg/19970501-19970601/threads.html) > * > * Oh. Fine. Do I get it right that this was discussed and agreed on > * more than a year ago? Argh. > * > >Yes, indeed. We had a period where we have been late with developments. That >period is now behind us. > > * This change breaks too many things, imnsho, and it seems again that if > * you are not able to make it to the RIPE meetings, you have lost. A > * special announce would have been most helpful (an explicit one, stating > * this). > * > >But, we did... or so I thought. We'll look into more ways of getting this >announcements across while trying to minimize the mails sent to people who >don't care about this. > >This particular feature has been actively asked for by the ccTLD >adninistrators and seen as a good thing by everyone I have had a chance to >speak with. These are actually the first complaints about it we have got so >far. > > * > As a side note I would like to stress that the RIPE Database is NOT the so > * urce > * > of authoritative data for domain objects (although we are happy to provide > * a > * > repository for TLD administrators). > * > This is UNLIKE the internic whose business is to sell names. > * > * Oh. Fine. whois.nic.de *cough* barely ever working... Weak argument. > * And If I wanted to know the data about the domain one level higher, > * I can do so myself, I don't need to get it told to me by whois, I > * want to know whether crab.de (bad example, it really exists) is in > * the DB already or not. > >I am sorry but I can't talk about the availability of services we don't >operate. > >I am sure you can look up domains yourself but this was actually seen as >providing the users (specially the ones less familiar with the RIPE DB) with >help on where to find the correct information. > >It seems to me that over time people have developed a sense that the RIPE DB >is the authoritative source of information regarding domain names in Europe. >May be this issue should be up for debate now. > >As a matter of fact the referral mechanism was seen as a way for ccTLD >administrators to include information in the Database pointing to their own >authoritative sources of information. > > * > * > The RIPE NCC is therefore acting according to users directives that were > * > discussed and agreed on an open way. > * > * Hitchhiker's Guide, anyone? *sigh* > >??? > > * > * This was a not-so-nice change, really. Consider this a statement of > * disagreement with the way the change took place. Ok, one more mailling > * list to follow... Time to sell. > >Will do so. As I said before, we will keep modifying and developing the RIPE >DB software and in particular this feature if users feel that is what they >want. We will also provide our point view. >I would like to have the input of the community. > >Regards, >Joao > > * > * Regards, > * Alexander Koch > * > * -- > * SGH Internet Division, Alexander Koch, Systems Administration > * Hannover, Germany, Phone +49 511 909198 0, Fax +49 511 391307 > * > > > -------- Logged at Mon Nov 30 16:28:47 MET 1998 --------- From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Mon Nov 30 16:28:40 1998 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:28:40 +0100 Subject: Ripe change to whois In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:14:44 +0200. <2.2.32.19981130151444.006f4948@max.ibm.net.il> References: <2.2.32.19981130151444.006f4948@max.ibm.net.il> Message-ID: <199811301528.QAA02654@kantoor.ripe.net> > Hank Nussbacher writes: > > Just check http://www.checkdomain.com with some nonexistant domain > housed at RIPE and tell me if something isn't wrong here. -Hank Hank, you know me and I am the last person to do fingerpointing exercises, but this complaint needs to be sent to . BTW, checkdomain.com works correctly for Germany (.de). Daniel -------- Logged at Mon Nov 30 17:43:59 MET 1998 --------- From joao at ripe.net Mon Nov 30 16:58:09 1998 From: joao at ripe.net (Joao Luis Silva Damas) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:58:09 +0100 Subject: Ripe change to whois In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:30:00 +0100. <19981130163000.A1306@xlink.net> References: <19981130163000.A1306@xlink.net> Message-ID: <199811301558.QAA23219@x41.ripe.net> Hi, Michael van Elst writes: * * I'm not sure what needs to be 'rectified'. But if you silently change * the semantics of a public database more than a year after a discussion * that wasn't attended by its current users, then you shouldn't wonder * about complaints. Well, Hank is hardly a new user. And yes, we took too long to deploy this feature, however, I can't see that the issues would have been different a year ago (maybe I am wrong). I am not having an exercise on defending against changing this. I am more than glad to make changes if the community asks for them (and to propose new ones that we think make sense). I want to see what the rest of the people think since the previous consensus was different to what I am seeing now. * * But complaining alone doesn't achieve anything. As it appears * the database lacks the feature of an exact-match query and I * kindly propose to add such a feature. * Well the purpose of the design is to give the user information about the parent domain if a certain domain is missing. That's also how the rest of the lookups in the RIPE DB work and is also what you do when looking in the DNS for contact info for a domain and you can't find it. May be people now see the need for an exact matching option (there is already one to disable referral: -R). However if you make this the default behaviour then the purpose of the referral mechanism is defeated. Joao * * Regards, * -- * i.A. Michael van Elst / phone: +49 721 6635 330 * Xlink - Network Information Centre \/ fax: +49 721 6635 349 * Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /\ link http://nic.xlink.net/ * D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany /_______ email: hostmaster at xlink.net * [ Xlink Internet Consulting GmbH, Sitz Koeln ] * [ Amtsgericht Koeln HRB 3526, Geschaeftsfuehrer: Michael Rotert ] * * -------- Logged at Tue Dec 1 12:43:46 MET 1998 --------- From jhma at EU.net Mon Nov 30 16:40:27 1998 From: jhma at EU.net (James Aldridge) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:40:27 +0100 Subject: Ripe change to whois In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:14:44 +0200." <2.2.32.19981130151444.006f4948@max.ibm.net.il> Message-ID: <199811301540.QAA13260@aegir.EU.net> Hank Nussbacher wrote: > Just check http://www.checkdomain.com with some nonexistant domain housed at > RIPE and tell me if something isn't wrong here. -Hank Something is wrong but I don't think it's the RIPE db. If a third party writes an application which doesn't correctly parse the information it receives from the RIPE database then I don't see how this can be the fault of either the RIPE NCC or those participating in the development of the database. Returning the next object up in the hierarchy seems sensible behaviour. It's certainly what I become used to when querying for inetnum or route objects - when normally I just paste an "interesting" host IP address into my whois query and expect to get back the details of the allocation/assignment containing that host address. Perhaps, in the same way that the RIPE db supports the -L, -m and -M flags (at least where inetnum and route objects are concerned), there should be an option for the database to only return an exact match. [ -L find all Less specific matches -m find first level More specific matches -M find all More specific matches ] James ----- ___ - James Aldridge, Senior Network Engineer, ---- / / / ___ ____ _/_ -- EUnet Communications Services BV --- /--- / / / / /___/ / --- Singel 540, 1017 AZ Amsterdam, NL -- /___ /___/ / / /___ /_ ---- Tel: +31 20 530 5327; Fax: +31 20 622 4657 - ----- 24hr emergency number: +31 20 421 0865 -------- Logged at Tue Dec 1 13:39:36 MET 1998 --------- From mlelstv at xlink.net Mon Nov 30 20:01:22 1998 From: mlelstv at xlink.net (Michael van Elst) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:01:22 +0100 Subject: Ripe change to whois In-Reply-To: <199811301558.QAA23219@x41.ripe.net>; from Joao Luis Silva Damas on Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 04:58:09PM +0100 References: <19981130163000.A1306@xlink.net> <199811301558.QAA23219@x41.ripe.net> Message-ID: <19981130200122.A2422@xlink.net> On Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 04:58:09PM +0100, Joao Luis Silva Damas wrote: > Hi, Hi Joao, > Michael van Elst writes: > * I'm not sure what needs to be 'rectified'. But if you silently change > * the semantics of a public database more than a year after a discussion > * that wasn't attended by its current users, then you shouldn't wonder > * about complaints. > > Well, Hank is hardly a new user. > And yes, we took too long to deploy this feature, however, I can't see that > the issues would have been different a year ago (maybe I am wrong). I'm just saying that there was some lack of communication. I think the RIPE database is too important to many people to modify it as silently as in this case. The last changes (suppressing of 'changed' lines and expansion of 'route' (?) objects) had some discussion immediately before they were implemented in the production system. I'd have preferred an more explicit announcement of changes, especially when semantics are changed. > * > * But complaining alone doesn't achieve anything. As it appears > * the database lacks the feature of an exact-match query and I > * kindly propose to add such a feature. > * > > Well the purpose of the design is to give the user information about the > parent domain if a certain domain is missing. That's also how the rest of the > lookups in the RIPE DB work and is also what you do when looking in the DNS > for contact info for a domain and you can't find it. The point is that it is incompatible. I don't mind having a 'less-specific' query (although I would have made this an explicit option and a bit more orthogonal). It is also not exactly like the rest of the lookups. There are hierarchical objects (inetnum, route) and there are more individual objects (like persons) where query types being 'less-specific' or 'more-specific' do not make sense. You also cannot do a more-specific search for domains (nor would it work well seeing how flat the domain tree is). > May be people now see the need for an exact matching option (there is already > one to disable referral: -R). However if you make this the default behaviour > then the purpose of the referral mechanism is defeated. Since I like orthogonal designs I suggest to add an -X option to return only exact matches for any kind of object. Regards, -- i.A. Michael van Elst / phone: +49 721 6635 330 Xlink - Network Information Centre \/ fax: +49 721 6635 349 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /\ link http://nic.xlink.net/ D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany /_______ email: hostmaster at xlink.net [ Xlink Internet Consulting GmbH, Sitz Koeln ] [ Amtsgericht Koeln HRB 3526, Geschaeftsfuehrer: Michael Rotert ] -------- Logged at Tue Dec 1 13:40:42 MET 1998 ---------