[ncc-services-wg] Fwd: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG
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Kurt Erik Lindqvist
kurtis at kurtis.pp.se
Wed Jan 21 20:10:12 CET 2004
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As there where no comments I will consider these as final. - - kurtis - On 2003-09-30, at 22.04, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > > > Please send corrections / comments. > > Best regards, > > - kurtis - > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Sabrina Wilmot <sabrina at ripe.net> >> Date: mån sep 29, 2003 13:06:11 Europe/Stockholm >> To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis at kurtis.pp.se> >> Subject: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG >> >> Hi Kurtis, >> >> Please find below the minutes of the Ripe NCC Services WG at RIPE 46. >> >> Regards, >> Sabrina >> RIPE NCC >> >> >>> RIPE 46, Amsterdam >>> >>> Working Group: Ripe NCC Services >>> Chair: Kurt Erik Lindqvist >>> Scribe: Isabel Pinto Coelho Sena >>> >>> Agenda: >>> >>> Slot 1, Tuesday 2/9 14.00-15.30 >>> >>> 1. NCC Services WG Charter (Kurtis) >>> 2. RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik) >>> Service level and activities 2004 >>> 3. RIPE NCC Information Services >>> 4. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >>> >>> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30 >>> >>> 5. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (Dirk-Willem van >>> Gulik). >>> Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC >>> and what other RIRs have done. >>> 6. DNS Services - Modification Plans >>> 7. Proposals from the community >>> 8. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >>> X. AOB >>> Z. Close >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> 1. NCC Services WG Charter >>> >>> WG Charter presented. No objections were made to it's content. >>> >>> 2. RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik, Managing Director >>> RIPE >>> NCC) >>> Service level and activities 2004 >>> >>> See Axel's presentation at >>> >>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >>> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who has read/seen the Member Update? >>> [~20 people raised their hands] >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who here are Members? >>> [~60 people raised their hands] >>> >>> 3. RIPE NCC Information Services >>> >>> See Axel's previous presentation from slide 27 onwards >>> >>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >>> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf >>> >>> 4. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >>> >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Are there any questions for Axel? >>> [No one had questions] >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : I have one myself: You spoke of the data you have >>> that can be used to educate journalists, where do you want to push >>> them, just as a general awareness? >>> >>> Axel Pawlik (MD RIPE NCC): We want them to know that we are working >>> well, we want the industry to tell them "do not interfere, they work >>> well". As an example: name servers >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Any other questions? >>> [None were raised] >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : please register for the GM >>> >>> Axel Pawlik : there was a heated discussion on the mailing lists? >>> None now? >>> [None responded] >>> >>> Rob Blokzijl (RIPE Chairman): I'm surprised that there is no one that >>> is willing to discuss the issues off the mailing-list, so I will >>> bring >>> up 2 issues that were often discussed. First one is: Whether all >>> these >>> services that the RIPE NCC offers are needed? I would like also to >>> point that there was no discussion on whether they are _useful_ >>> however. Then there was the issue of a flat free financial >>> contribution versus a supermarket scenario? Meaning that one could >>> pick and choose the services one is willing to pay and have use for. >>> >>> Wilfried Woeber (Vienna University - ACOnet): I've observed through >>> the years another organization where the same discussion was going on >>> for years, started out as a flat free and then some started to object >>> to this model. In the end, they found the most reasonable solution: >>> you buy all or nothing. It is difficult to find out which activities >>> are optional and which mandatory. Individual amount, increasing the >>> administration overhead that goes along with keeping up with this >>> supermarket model, this will not come for free... The complexity that >>> we might inject into the subject is not going to be easy. It also >>> splits the RIPE Community into 2 / 3 / 4 camps. Copyrighting on >>> certain Services, making people pay for copies. It will de-stabilise >>> the RIPE NCC and the Community. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Well, a number of people are questioning the order >>> and priority of the activities. >>> >>> Rob Blockzijl (RIPE Chair): I hope that one of the results of having >>> this WG is to make people remember why certain services were created >>> in the past, as the NCC did not just came up on a idle afternoon >>> with: >>> "let's create an activity". The NCC has always listened to the >>> Community's input. It might not have been clear as to where and when >>> the decisions were taken, that's why I'm glad we have this WG. Having >>> it, it is possible to revisit the past and re-evaluate current >>> services, although it might be more constructive to look at the >>> future >>> and we can improve. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : How many of you have read the Activity Plan? >>> [~10 max raised their hands] >>> I'm concerned because some people on the mailing list indicated that >>> they can not influence the AP, but most here have not read it. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : If there are no other questions I'll see you all >>> on >>> Thursday. >>> >>> FINISH >>> >>> NO ACTIONS >>> >>> _______________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30 >>> >>> 5. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by >>> Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache) >>> Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC >>> and what other RIRs have done. >>> 6. DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman) >>> 7. Proposals from the community >>> 8. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >>> X. AOB >>> Z. Close >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> 5. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by >>> Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache) >>> Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC >>> and what other RIRs have done. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: As there were quite a lot of questions on the >>> mailing list about X.509, we will have a presentation about it and >>> also invite the other RIRs to explain what they are doing in their >>> region. Also, at the last session I forgot to mention that we might >>> require a co-chair, as it is mentioned in the charter. >>> >>> Dirk-Willem van Gulik: This presentation focuses mainly on the issue >>> of trust, not as much on the technical aspects of X.509 >>> >>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >>> nccserv-pki-x509.pdf >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : any questions ? >>> [None] >>> >>> Presentation by Andrei Robachevsky, Chief Technical Officer, Ripe NCC >>> >>> "PKI development at the RIPE NCC" >>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >>> nccserv-pki.pdf >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: any questions? >>> >>> Taiji Kimura from JPNIC: are there plans for non-repudiation of the >>> query, validate queries to the DB? >>> >>> Andrei Robachevsky : no, this is not about the DB itself, but more >>> about correspondence with the NCC. >>> >>> Wilfried Woeber (DB WG Chair): We have been discussing whether we >>> want >>> to introduce a system to tag objects in the DB with the auth method >>> that was used for the last update of the object. This is an idea that >>> we have been playing with, if the community wants this, then please >>> come forward with a plan. >>> >>> Wilfried Woeber: About integrating a Certification Authority across >>> RIRs, I would recommend to first try it in our region, find out if it >>> works well. I'm not a fan of having hierarchy in the trust >>> model. Individual registries should do it in their region, then we >>> find out what we need to cross the borders. I would not like RIRs to >>> all go to Verisign for instance. >>> >>> Janos Zsako (RIPE NCC Executive Board): about message signing, we >>> live >>> with the assumptions that the db is in a secure server, so whether >>> after the modification/update with PKI the data is still stable is >>> questionable. We can store the update method, again assuming that the >>> db cannot be corrupted in the mean time. So we need a system that >>> verifies that the db has not been corrupted. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: in conclusion, issue is if queries and/or DB >>> entries >>> must be signed, and whether the content of the DB is secure, but this >>> is maybe more a topic for the DB WG. >>> >>> ARIN - Ginny Listman: >>> >>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >>> nccserv-arin-x509.pdf >>> >>> APNIC - Anne Lord: we are doing the same as Ripe NCC, issuing >>> certificates for our equivalent of the LIR Portal, MyApnic. We have >>> issued 500 certificates so far. >>> >>> LACNIC Raul Echeberria: we would like to implement a certification >>> system before 2004. Right now we are still working on the budget that >>> would be needed for it. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Thank you all. >>> >>> 6. DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman) >>> >>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >>> nccserv-rdns.pdf >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : I like the idea, any questions ? >>> [None] >>> >>> 7. Proposals from the community >>> 8. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Now we have the open mike session: floor is open. >>> In >>> future sessions I would like to have people's presentations or >>> proposals in writing on the mailing list before they are presented at >>> RIPE Meetings >>> >>> Hank Nussbacher (IUCC): I have been asked by many people to speak up >>> during this WG as I have sent some emails to the mailing list. My >>> view >>> is that a lot of the members had their budget cut and the NNC has not >>> had their budget cut in the same fashion. We are apathetic, 2250 euro >>> is not that much to warrant that people can spend 250 euro/1 hour of >>> their time on the mailing list. There are many good things in the >>> NCC: >>> DB group is the world leader. But to evaluate how the NCC is spending >>> their money we need a more transparent Activity Plan. For instance >>> for >>> the trainings, they are free of charge. I would like to know the >>> budget and man-power needed for these free trainings. Instead, it's >>> budget is incorporated in the RS budget, there is no way to know how >>> much of that is used for the trainings, there is no break-down of the >>> costs. The TTM group, IRT - there has been nothing mentioned about it >>> at this meeting BTW - there is nothing about it in the AP, therefore >>> we do not know the manpower and budget it needs, the only way to know >>> for the membership is to have a break-down and it does not exist. 10 >>> to 20 people have responded to my mails, which is not really enough >>> to >>> know what the majority of the community thinks about these issues. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist : yes, people do not care, like we saw at the last >>> session on Tuesday, that only a handful read the AP. I guess the >>> majority is happy, but that is difficult to double-check, people do >>> not go on the mailing list only to say that they are happy. Next year >>> at the RIPE Meeting in May, the NCC will give more insight on the >>> budget & AP and there will be more time for comment before the Annual >>> Meeting 3 months later. >>> >>> Axel Pawlik: The level of detail we give in the financial report, >>> question is: how deep should we go into detail? For the trainings >>> yes, >>> not so difficult. I will work together with the Board to see what we >>> can adapt. And I would like to clarify that the IRT is not really an >>> incident response team, it is not a separate team as such. It is an >>> activity. >>> >>> Hank Nussbacher : let's say that the TTM group costs a 300.000 >>> euros/year, but we can get the same service from a commercial >>> company. Why not do a market survey before introducing a new >>> activity? >>> >>> Axel Pawlik: About the TTM, there is a lot of info about it in the >>> AP. >>> >>> Daniel Karrenberg: I worry because of economic problems. Training, if >>> the membership wants more transparency, OK, but whether it is really >>> necessary? Why train New LIRs, what do I care? As one of the persons >>> who started with these trainings, I would like to clarify that they >>> are not done only for the benefit of the trainee, but to the whole >>> community as well. Creating a well oiled community. The better things >>> work, the less interaction at the NCC. Also, the NCC would not be as >>> accepted without trainings. For many people, it is only by attending >>> the courses that they understand and accept the NCC's role. Just >>> looking at it from a financial point of view, if you do that too >>> much, >>> you might risk the NCC as a whole organisation. You want and need the >>> NCC to be more stable than the rest of the members. The impact of the >>> NCC crumbling is a whole lot different. I also would like to remind >>> people that one of the ways for us to ensure impartiality and >>> neutrality is by hiring international staff, this is expensive. Were >>> we to be driven only by financials, we would not hire from Turkey or >>> Africa. Yes, lets have a look at the financials, but lets us not be >>> driven by it. Because it might be good for today, but not for >>> tomorrow. >>> >>> Kurtis Lindqvist: I agree, but showing the members the budget is not >>> saying that you are doing things bad. There are 2 issues: >>> 1) transparency on costs and >>> 2) evaluation of activities and how they benefit the community. >>> >>> Hank Nussbacher: Some services are excellent. But whether it benefits >>> the community that someone goes to all the ICANN Meetings, it is >>> needed, but the members might think it is not. In the same way that >>> the Membership would live, accept to still have mail-from auth, but >>> we >>> have it better. >>> >>> Kurt Kayser (N-IX Nurnberg Internet eXchange) : About the trainings, >>> a >>> while back I proposed to find partners in countries, we could offer >>> the service to train people in German, since we are very familiar >>> with >>> all the policies & procedures. But I never heard anything about this >>> from the NCC. >>> >>> Axel Pawlik : We are looking at better ways of doing our >>> trainings. People like our trainings but it does not scale, your >>> proposal does scale. But how do we do it, how is that training >>> standardised, do we need to certify trainers ??? But we are >>> definitely >>> looking at it. >>> >>> Daniel Bovio (RIPE NCC Board): Hank said that the "silent majority" >>> do >>> not care to show up at meetings, or communicate on the >>> mailing-list. This is a problem, they do not know what the activities >>> are. We, the RIPE Community, have always been the main source for >>> ideas to the NCC and their activities. The Board needs to go on with >>> these activities anyway, try to involve members, find out what they >>> want, the survey was good in this respect. This group is the main >>> source of the main ideas, there is a vast group that don't care, >>> others do and those end up leading were the ship is going. We do not >>> get enough feedback. >>> >>> Kurtis: Thank you all for coming >>> >>> FINISH >>> >>> NO ACTIONS >>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBQA7OlqarNKXTPFCVEQInRQCfQZMLqrivR1SFt6/QjKJ/FFEVHSYAn2wY JX7fTFKeEvDuQjKYbMP/XzaF =xPXV -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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