[members-discuss] Complaints against LIRs ignored by NCC
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Christian Hoffmann [sfip84 Hosting und mehr UG]
c.hoffmann at hostingundmehr.com
Thu Nov 21 17:21:24 CET 2013
Hey, am i the only person having the feeling that there is a private issue going on here? I mean come on, this guy has the bigger one, i am jalous too, but as part of the RIPE NCC i think i really should trust the persons working for the NCC. For my understanding with every new allocation (and he has a lot..) there is an Audit going on. Ok, he is announcing part of the networks outside the RIPE Area, but for my understanding that is ok as long as the company and the core network is based in Europe. Or did i missed something. Am 21.11.2013 17:12, schrieb William Weber: > Hello together, > > So so so, finally he can reply - Hello there Mr. Lu, why were my > previous contact tries ignored? > > I was in fact *AT YOUR ADDRESS* in Holland in 2012, nobody there - I > would have someone sent to your address in China also, but that one is > unclear described. > > >I wondering where you have the inaccurate income data about me > personally and my private company as well > I do not need to share any sources (what is this, the PLA?), all data > was obtained legally in my country of residence (Slovenia) and Austria > - I can not vouch for correctness but in the past it was usually near > the expected. > Not like your data is secret in the Netherlands. >> making an criminal charge(corruption) to Ripe NCC, inaccurate publish >> our private income data in the public space without supporting >> evidence are very serious offense under european law, although my >> lawyer strongly suggest him to write the letter, I insists my self to >> write here just because I would appreciate member's understanding and >> community's support. > > I'm not sure what gives you the idea that Dutch law would be > applicable to me in Slovenia/Austaira (or at all, considering that > Slovenia/Austria as per constitution cannot extradict citizens)? > > The statement of mine - *POSSIBLE* bribe - Is fully legal to make, > even the implication of it would be - The RIPE ticket system is also > not the public and neither is the mailing list, it is a closed system. > > You can sue me all you want, i have not much to loose currently, and > once cleared move to Israel which does neither extradict nor care much > about Europe. > The Austrian police confiscated my hardware 2012 and 2013, the > Austrian police investigates my financial transactions, the Polish > police wants to see me in jail (and has an order for that), Hongkong > authorities are not amused, my phones and internet is taped, i am > being followed by the Austrian police. > > Just google my name and add "tor" and you get an image, you (and no > one else) can threaten me with "law" anymore. > > I will reply more lenghty later, because even though the Austrian > government does not like me they still send me invitations to > broadband expansion forums and force me to attend and speak. > > Also, most here agree with me and you CLEARLY violate RIPE policies > with the ARIN routing and others - So *you* are the one that should > explain himself, not me. > > This is also a note: *The statements here are fully personal or > statements of my own companies, not EDIS GmbH which is however one LIR > i represent.* > > > -- > William Weber | RIPE: WW | LIR: > william at william.si <mailto:william at william.si> > > > > > Am 21.11.2013 um 16:44 schrieb "H.Lu" <h.lu at anytimechinese.com > <mailto:h.lu at anytimechinese.com>>: > >> Hi >> >> We do not want to sue "anybody" here, sorry for mistyping English. >> >> we followed all the process in the Ripe region, and I personally >> involved and participated in the Ripe policy development process, >> >> To inasset network: >> >> I wonder how you as single organization define "best interest of ripe >> member" and justifying other member's IP usage? >> Kind regards >> >> Lu >> >> On 2013-11-21, at ??12:26, "Administration - [ inAsset Networks ]" >> <admin at inasset.es <mailto:admin at inasset.es>> wrote: >> >>> >>> Good Afternoon (in Europe) >>> >>> Mr. Lu, we will follow your activities closely, and see if RIPE NCC >>> takes action in the event the use of your assigned space is not in >>> the best interest of its members. >>> >>> For now, we would like to know why you are announcing RIPE NCC space >>> in ARIN. >>> >>> *Administration* - [ inAsset Networks ] >>> >>> El 21/11/2013, a las 16:02, H.Lu <h.lu at anytimechinese.com >>> <mailto:h.lu at anytimechinese.com>> escribió: >>> >>>> Hi: >>>> >>>> What a surprise morning. >>>> >>>> I think it was talking about me and my company. >>>> >>>> To clarify few things, the justification process of our application >>>> took very long in ripe NCC and I believe ripe NCC investigate about >>>> us heavily in the major service we provided at the time of it being >>>> justified. and corruption claim are very much inappreicate and I >>>> would ask you apologizes to Ripe NCC. >>>> >>>> Me as individual as been actively involved in the ripe community in >>>> past 5 years, and I believe most active member in the list knowing >>>> me personally. >>>> >>>> I wondering where you have the inaccurate income data about me >>>> personally and my private company as well. as it can not be obtain >>>> legally and the data was not correct. I personally owing quite few >>>> companies worldwide but they are all private companies I do not >>>> feel the need to share our financial details publicly. >>>> >>>> Most part of our business are confidential so sorry we can not >>>> provide more details here, like every request, Member base are >>>> trusting Ripe NCC to make the right decision at the time of >>>> application. That is how business really works, only Ripe NCC has >>>> rights to getting into confidential area of member's business, >>>> otherwise I believe every member would have to publish >>>> every detail about their business to the public. >>>> >>>> And I would ask if you do have more questions for me, as long as >>>> it is not confidential, I'd like to share my stories with you. >>>> Please do not bother Ripe NCC for this matter any more. >>>> >>>> At this point, Ripe NCC are just a book keeper for its members and >>>> Ripe community, they are not police force, if you do feel we have >>>> some unlawful practice--thought I seriously doubt about it, please >>>> contact related law enforcement and we are very happy to assist in >>>> the matter with them. >>>> >>>> Last but not least, as I just had phone call with my lawyer, >>>> making an criminal charge(corruption) to Ripe NCC, inaccurate >>>> publish our private income data in the public space without >>>> supporting evidence are very serious offense under european law, >>>> although my lawyer strongly suggest him to write the letter, I >>>> insists my self to write here just because I would appreciate >>>> member's understanding and community's support. >>>> >>>> Let me know if you still have more questions. >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> >>>> Lu >>>> >>>> On 2013-11-21, at ??11:05, William Weber >>>> <ripe-members-discussion at edisglobal.com >>>> <mailto:ripe-members-discussion at edisglobal.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As RIPE seems to have decided that i can be ignored and no one >>>>> needs to reply to me i make this public now as threatened to them >>>>> before - See Dear Andrew, i don't care what you say - if you don't >>>>> reply me with anything useful then i take steps to get others >>>>> involved. >>>>> This is not the first time i reported a LIR for evaluation and was >>>>> ignored. >>>>> >>>>> I waited over a month for any reply and sent multiple follow up >>>>> mails, no replies and the ticket is "open" in the Lirportal, now >>>>> the last reply i got was again useless and without any interest >>>>> (No Andrew, i cannot use the LIR<>LIR report form to report >>>>> LIR<>RIPE, i can't even enter that there.) >>>>> >>>>> Theres some more fun to be had, here's a text i prepared before i >>>>> sent my mail to RIPE after some investigations (which merely took >>>>> 10 minutes time and a few calls to some associates) - Now, isn't >>>>> that proof enough for an evaluation? >>>>> I think so and the other LIRs i represent do as well, but make >>>>> your own picture. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Today we follow an interesting 'ISP' which is based on a >>>>> sole-trader in the Netherlands which managed to have >>>>> RIPE/Afrinic/ARIN assign him IPv4 space totaling to a /8: >>>>> >>>>> His name is Heng Lu, also known as "OutsideHeaven" - >>>>> http://outsideheaven.com <http://outsideheaven.com/> >>>>> Seemingly based in the Netherlands Lu is of Chinese origin and >>>>> does (as far as informations go) not live in Europe at all. >>>>> >>>>> First being a customer of OVH and having his IP space announced on >>>>> OVHs AS now most space seems to be announced by Los Angeles based >>>>> ISP Multacom (AS35916). >>>>> >>>>> A short view on the website shows that no real services are >>>>> provided yet massive amounts of IPs are registered to him >>>>> personally, him as sole trader or his companies at all RIRs: >>>>> >>>>> 154.80.0.0/12 - Afrinic - 1.048.574 IPs >>>>> >>>>> This is an AFRINIC net assigned to a company in the Seychelles >>>>> ("Abacus (Seychelles) Limited"), the Person handle and mail shows >>>>> the connection to OutsideHeaven. >>>>> The network itself contains smaller assignments, all with the >>>>> descr of "CloudInnovation infrastructure" and various countries >>>>> set (AD, SD, YT....), most IPs are not announced at all and seem >>>>> unused. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 5.224.0.0/15 - RIPE - 131.070 IPs >>>>> >>>>> A RIPE network from 2012.09 announced by Multacom in LAX outside >>>>> of the RIPE region. >>>>> Seems unused. >>>>> >>>>> 5.132.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65000 IPs >>>>> >>>>> RIPE network dating to 2012.07 (Just 3 months after the /15 was >>>>> allocated, exactly the timeframe RIPE required a space to be used >>>>> in to get a new one...), announced on OVH. >>>>> >>>>> 37.222.0.0/15 - RIPE - 131.070 IPs >>>>> >>>>> Yet another RIPE network from 2012.04 (who can spell 'bribe'?) >>>>> announced by OVH on France, unused as well. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 46.136.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65000 IPs >>>>> >>>>> Allocated 2010.11 - Announced by a datacenter in the Netherlands, >>>>> unused. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 31.201.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65000 IPs >>>>> >>>>> 2011.04 - Announced in LAX/Multacom. >>>>> >>>>> List (not complete, there is more smaller assignments on him): >>>>> 154.80.0.0/12 - Afrinic - 1.048.574 IPs >>>>> 185.2.48.0/22 - RIPE - 1024 IPs - 2012.09 >>>>> 5.224.0.0/15 - RIPE - 131.070 IPs - 2012.09 >>>>> 5.132.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65.534 IPs - 2012.07 >>>>> 37.222.0.0/15 - RIPE - 131.070 IPs - 2012.04 >>>>> 31.201.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65.534 IPs - 2011.04 >>>>> 46.136.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65.534 IPs - 2010.11 >>>>> 178.236.224.0/20 - RIPE - 4096 IPs - 2010.06 >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> William Weber | RIPE Person: WW | LIR: at.edisgmbh (among others) >>>>> william at edisglobal.com <mailto:william at edisglobal.com> | >>>>> william at william.si <mailto:william at william.si> | http://edis.at >>>>> <http://edis.at/> | http://as57169.net <http://as57169.net/> >>>>> EDIS GmbH (AS57169) NOC >>>>> Maribor, Slovenia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht: >>>>> >>>>>> *Von: *William Weber <william at edis.at <mailto:william at edis.at>> >>>>>> *Betreff: **Aw: NCC#2013100726 Complaint against a LIR* >>>>>> *Datum: *09. Oktober 2013 13:18:36 MESZ >>>>>> *An: *Andrew de la Haye <andrew at ripe.net <mailto:andrew at ripe.net>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Andrew, >>>>>> >>>>>> And who verified that these 2 analysts were not bribed... i know >>>>>> guys buying /12s by bribing AFRINIC officials (in fact, the same >>>>>> LIR as this mail is about "bought" space there also, >>>>>> 154.80.0.0/12) and this isn't unheard in LACNIC/APNIC either, so >>>>>> what tells me RIPE did/does not do the same... >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, but this is not really any better now: >>>>>> >>>>>> This guy "accidentally" sits in Amsterdam as well, not even far >>>>>> from you, being Chinese(!) with barely 3000EUR income reports >>>>>> filled 2012/2013 in the Netherlands for his BVs and his sole >>>>>> trader status and has one of the largest total >>>>>> allocations in the entire RIPE region? >>>>>> >>>>>> How can he announce 2(!) *ENTIRE* /15 from an ARIN ASN in Los >>>>>> Angeles while i and others got contacted by RIPE about a measly >>>>>> /24 on an ARIN ASN? >>>>>> >>>>>> Why do his assignments make no sense, look auto generated and >>>>>> never contain any end-user data? Why was this not verified at >>>>>> add-alloc? >>>>>> >>>>>> How does he use over a million IPs on a 100Mbit uplink to his >>>>>> upstream provider? >>>>>> >>>>>> This all is still very fishy and not really impressive... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards, >>>>>> William Weber >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> EDIS GmbH >>>>>> NOC >>>>>> Hauptplatz 3/3 >>>>>> 8010 Graz >>>>>> Austria >>>>>> Umsatzsteuer-ID: ATU 64124511 >>>>>> Firmenbuch: FN 308697t >>>>>> >>>>>> phone: +43 316 827 500 >>>>>> fax: +43 316 827 500 777 >>>>>> http://www.edis.at <http://www.edis.at/> >>>>>> >>>>>> This message was sent by EDIS GmbH, it is STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL >>>>>> and is solely for the individual or organisation to whom it is >>>>>> addressed. It may contain PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL >>>>>> information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are >>>>>> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying >>>>>> of this communication and its contents is strictly prohibited. >>>>>> If you have received this communication in error, please notify >>>>>> us at support at edis.at <mailto:support at edis.at> and delete it from >>>>>> your computer. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Am 08.10.2013 um 11:55 schrieb Andrew de la Haye <andrew at ripe.net >>>>>> <mailto:andrew at ripe.net>>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear William, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We take your allegations very seriously. As such, your ticket >>>>>>> has been escalated to me by Andrea Cima, manager of the RIPE >>>>>>> NCC's Registration Services Department. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Before the RIPE NCC reached the last /8 of IPv4 address space, >>>>>>> we implemented a temporarily enhanced allocation procedure to >>>>>>> ensure a fair, neutral and well-documented IPv4 run-out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This procedure was communicated to our membership and community >>>>>>> at meetings, via the Address Policy Working Group Mailing List, >>>>>>> and via our website. You can find the complete description at: >>>>>>> https://ripe65.ripe.net/presentations/204-last_slash_8_NCC_Services.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Measures were taken to ensure our members' needs were filled on >>>>>>> a first-come, first-served basis, and to ensure that we followed >>>>>>> due diligence. Each request was evaluated by two IP Resource >>>>>>> Analysts. Furthermore, all large requests (/15 PA or /18 PI or >>>>>>> more) were rigorously evaluated by Registration Services >>>>>>> Management, checked for policy compliance by our Policy >>>>>>> Development Officer, and were finally approved by two RIPE NCC >>>>>>> Senior Managers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The IPv4 requests you have listed followed this process >>>>>>> completely and, based on the information we received, were >>>>>>> entirely justified. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andrew de la Haye >>>>>>> Chief Operations Officer >>>>>>> RIPE NCC >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Singel 258 >>>>>>> 1016 AB Amsterdam >>>>>>> the Netherlands >>>>>>> andrew at ripe.net <mailto:andrew at ripe.net> >>>>>>> tel: +31 20 535 4444 >>>>>>> fax: +31 20 535 4445 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 07.10.2013 um 14:29 schrieb RIPE NCC Hostmaster >>>>> <hostmaster at ripe.net <mailto:hostmaster at ripe.net>>: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear William, >>>>>> >>>>>> As requested I have escalated your complaint to the RIPE NCC Senior >>>>>> Management. >>>>>> >>>>>> They will come back to you ASAP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Andrea Cima >>>>>> >>>>>> RIPE NCC >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:11:37 +0200, William Weber wrote: >>>>>>> Dear Andrea, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So if there is no proof for a bribe you do as it does not exist >>>>>>> at all? >>>>>>> Why did no one tell me this before, i would have come with a >>>>>>> suitcase of cash to AMS... Seriously, this statement is worse >>>>>>> than what 3rd world dictators state all the time about bribery... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Considering that RIPE members have no access to other RIPE >>>>>>> members add-alloc (or any other) forms it is also entirely >>>>>>> *impossible* to prove lies in them (hey, how should i do that if >>>>>>> i can't read them at all?) - Thus it clearly is your obligation >>>>>>> to verify this claims OR provide the accuser with access to a >>>>>>> system to verify it himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is by itself alone VERY suspicious that the single largest >>>>>>> allocation for weeks is allocated 8 days before the last /8 is >>>>>>> reached to an unknown sole trader without any business.... yes, >>>>>>> i think i have enough 'proof' to get this verified by the RIPE, >>>>>>> please escalate it to whoever you think is appropriate or i will >>>>>>> do so myself today at 00:00 via the RIPE mailing list to ALL >>>>>>> members. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards, >>>>>>> William Weber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> EDIS GmbH >>>>>>> NOC >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 04.10.2013 um 15:52 schrieb RIPE NCC Hostmaster >>>>>>> <hostmaster at ripe.net <mailto:hostmaster at ripe.net>>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear William, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All allocations are issued based on RIPE policy and >>>>>>>> documentation that >>>>>>>> demonstrates the need for those resources. The information >>>>>>>> provided by >>>>>>>> members is confidential and cannot be shared with other members. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you have proof that a member has provided false information >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> RIPE NCC, please provide us this proof. Based on this we can then >>>>>>>> start evaluating the claims and take appropriate actions. The same >>>>>>>> counts for your accusation of a RIPE NCC emloyee having received a >>>>>>>> bribe, which is a very serious accusation, that we do not take >>>>>>>> lightly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finally it seems there is a misunderstanding about the date on >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> the RIPE NCC has reached its last /8 policy. The correct date is 14 >>>>>>>> September 2012. Please find the official announcement at: >>>>>>>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/2012-September/001825.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andrea Cima >>>>>>>> Registration Services Manager >>>>>>>> RIPE NCC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:49:32 +0200, William Weber wrote: >>>>>>>>> x-ncc-regid: at.edisgmbh (and >>>>>>>>> at.<removed>, li.<removed>, li.<removed>, plus representing >>>>>>>>> <removed> and <removed>) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, i have to complain again to evaluate someone.... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> LIR is nl.outsideheaven >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am 100% sure that the allocation of his netblocks have >>>>>>>>> either used false data in the add-alloc forms, plain lies or >>>>>>>>> bribes (which i see as the most likely) - His company has no >>>>>>>>> trading activity in any country (verified with Dutch and >>>>>>>>> Chinese tax authorities) and nothing that would justify the >>>>>>>>> usage of this amounts of IPv4 space. >>>>>>>>> His usage of some of them also violates RIPE rules, most are >>>>>>>>> for example not even announced inside the RIPE region but >>>>>>>>> originate from AS35916 (Multacom in Los Angeles, USA) solely. >>>>>>>>> The assignments while RIPE already reached the last /8 are >>>>>>>>> very questionable as well and overturning a members and board >>>>>>>>> decision. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 185.2.48.0/22 - RIPE - 1024 IPs - 2012.09 >>>>>>>>> -> Announced in the ARIN region entirely, not RIPE >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 5.224.0.0/15 - RIPE - 131.070 IPs - 2012.09 >>>>>>>>> -> Announced in the ARIN region entirely, not RIPE >>>>>>>>> -> How was he able to obtain a /15 5 months AFTER RIPE reached >>>>>>>>> the last /8? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 5.132.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65.534 IPs - 2012.07 >>>>>>>>> -> Announced in the ARIN region entirely, not RIPE >>>>>>>>> -> How was he able to obtain a /16 3 months AFTER RIPE reached >>>>>>>>> the last /8? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 37.222.0.0/15 - RIPE - 131.070 IPs - 2012.04 >>>>>>>>> -> How was he able to obtain a /15 1 month AFTER RIPE reached >>>>>>>>> the last /8? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 31.201.0.0/16 - RIPE - 65.534 IPs - 2011.04 >>>>>>>>> -> Announced in the ARIN region entirely, not RIPE >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards, >>>>>>>>> William Weber >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> EDIS GmbH >>>>>>>>> NOC >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> ---- >>>>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >>>>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to >>>>> the general page: >>>>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >>>>> >>>>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >>>>> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >>>> ---- >>>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >>>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to >>>> the general page: >>>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >>>> >>>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >>>> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >>> >>> ---- >>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >>> general page: >>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >>> >>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >>> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Christian Hoffmann Geschäftsführender Gesellschafter ---- sfip84 Hosting und mehr UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Winterhuder Weg 29 DE-22085 Hamburg Tel.: +49 (0) 40 / 22 81 56 17 0 Fax.: +49 (0) 40 / 22 81 56 17 9 - vetretungsberechtigter Gesellschafter: Christian Hoffmann USt-IdNr.: DE282309913 Registergericht: Hamburg HRB 121712 -- [ Ein Geschäft, das nur Geld einbringt, ist ein schlechtes Geschäft. ] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://lists.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/members-discuss/attachments/20131121/ddc82413/attachment.html>
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