Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200
----------
> From: Sergey A. Mukhin violet@localhost
> To: stesin@localhost
> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM
>
> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin stesin@localhost writes:
> A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET)
> A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" violet@localhost
> A>
> A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:
>
> S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people.
> >>
> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-)
>
> A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate
> A> here?
>
> In no way. What about yours?
>
> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers.
>
> >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot
> >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ?
>
> A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities
> A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue,
> A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also?
>
> A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable
> A> question here while asking what's wrong
> A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a
> A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?"
> A> ("this" means the current state of things).
>
> A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok,
> A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET
> A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot
> A> live being served by RIPE directly any more;
> A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR)
> A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow.
>
> A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons?
>
> Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate
> to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too.
> And some would prefer be served in Moscow.
>
> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number
> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE
> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree
> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a
> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.
>
> Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already
> given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors.
>
> A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow,
> A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who
> A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men,
> A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants
> A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope
> A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice
> A> of where to be served from those countries.
>
> Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will
follow.
> We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here
> in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult
> present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are
> awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet.
Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's
letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this
message.
"Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out
opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with
interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list
are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs
in other European countries. Here is the vote!"
>
> A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even
> A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever
> A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle...
>
> A> My conclusion:
>
> A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to
> A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+
> A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation
> A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship
> A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where
> A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway?
>
> A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have
> A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support
> A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs
> A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is
> A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National
> A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care.
>
> >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves.
>
> A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the
> A> approach of ripe-167 document.
>
> I am afraid you mistreat the approach.
>
> >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier.
>
> A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please.
> A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close
> A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and
> A> union are different things, aren't they?
>
> I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of
> everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it?
>
> Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my
> own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not.
>
> As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit
> vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point
> of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me.
>
> >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered
> >> by the fact somebody else wants ?
>
> A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them)
> A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite"
> A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions.
>
> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare
> free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you
> point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is
> a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by
> definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time.
>
> I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow
> such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ).
>
> >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still
> >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can
> >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration
> >> the facts no matter if we like them or not.
>
> A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another
> A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe
> A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear
> A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides...
> A> if there will be any. But not now, please!
>
> Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside.
> And it's done ;-) (joke)
>
> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are
> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than
> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
>
>
> Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or
> later or never! That is your choice only.
>
> As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already.
> And we try it.
>
> And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does
> not like it right now ( or even will never like it )?
>
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@localhost
> >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/
> >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
> >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly.
*
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A> Best regards,
> A> Andrew Stesin
>
> A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@localhost
> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/
> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
