From plat at ripn.net Mon Feb 2 19:48:21 1998 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:48:21 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at "Jan 28, 98 07:19:42 pm" Message-ID: <199802021848.VAA09013@argo.ripn.net> Hi, No comments on this literary work. Sorry, only one: RosNIIROS has been established by the State Committee for Higher Education and Russian Research Center "Kurchatov Institute". Phantom of Relcom Company is still needed ? Regards, Alexei Platonov According to Andrew Stesin: > > Dear Mirjam, dear Daniel, Robert, Mr. Postel, and others, > > as ripe-167 story goes on, I'd like to inform you about > some new impressions and information we got with regard > to it. > > Abstract: Ukrainian LIRs in their vaste majority > would not agree with the Russian approach there > and vote against the project of a new RIR in Moscow. > > As you already know, a conference of LIR' represantatives > from Russia took place in Moscow, January 22. Ukrainian > representatives were also present (4 delegations from > major Ukrainian LIRs, me among them). During the direct > conversations with "new RIR in Moscow" project initiators > many aspects became much more clear. Here my opinions are. > > 1. During the meeting, *nothing* from the argumentation > provided in ripe-167 was > recognized by community as a sugnificant argument which clarifies > the "new RIR" approach. Document authors didn't even > bother defending their former argumentation. I got an opinion > that argumentation given in ripe-167 was written with the only goal > to convince RIPE and IANA, it's pretty much irrelevant to > the current state of affairs here. > > 2. It seems that the idea of "new RIR in Moscow" has a plain > political background, with a scope limited to a single > (though big) country -- Russia, or even to a single city -- Moscow. > > Our Russian collegues are now facing the trend of their goverment > trying to establish a certain degree of control over > Internet business in Russia. > > They also recognize that IP address space distribution is one > of the most important things to ISP business. So they decided > to extend the scope and sugnificance of RosNIIROS registry as much > as possible, probably in order to prevent "some others" (whos?) > attempt to monopolise IP space redistribution *in Russia*. > > 3. The very idea of defining a "region" for the projected RIR in terms of > politics, not geography (as opposed to the existing practice) -- is not > occasional, this is semi-intentional. > > The abbreviation "CIS" should really be understood as "a sphere of > Russian business and political interests". > > Some details. Ukraine is a large East European country > with population of about 50 million > comparatively educated and skilled people (as opposed to about > 150+ million population of Russia). The whole territory of > Ukraine is in European continent. The estimated size of > Internet (and similar) services market here is comparative to Russian. > From the other hand, Ukraine got about 3 year delay in social, > technological et al. development compared to Russia (partially > due to the fact that Russia monopolized many achievements > and infrastructure of ex-USSR). So Russia has it's business > and communication structures being developed faster now and > the market is more tight so far. > > Naturally, Russian companies are interested in joining > Ukrainian market, where they might become a stronger players. > Consider also the fact that Ukrainian ISPs all were the > customers of their Russian collegues (note the ex-USSR > infrastructure above) some 2-3 years ago, and were > getting sugnificant amounts of funds from Ukraine. > > Being a RIR (esp. in case RIPE will delegate them monopolistic > rights at the territory mentioned) will let certain people > and organisations to continue getting their "traditional" funds > from other countries, as they used to do before. > > 4. Also note that RIRs tend to have a sugnificant influence > on the technical policies and "technical fashion" among their > customers; also this means access to technical information > about them and ability to monitor the development > of their networks. With RIPE (RNA) this is not an issue for us, > as RIPE doesn't represent any single (or group) entity > who has strong business interests in Ukraine or anyone > who is interested in monitoring our development. > > And with RosNIIROS this *is* an issue potentially. > RosNIIROS doesn't represent a voluntary association of > any kind, there isn't one even in a single Russia so far. > RosNIIROS is a semi-govermental organization, established as a > daughter structure of Moscow "Relcom" company; and > Relcom venture is wellknown for it's numerous and > continued attempts to become a monopolist on Russian > Internet services market; and recently lost a sugnificant > share in Ukrainian market due to rapid development of Ukrainian > communication infrastructure, which allowed us to get > a choice of whom to pay for services. > > A RIR in Russia, which will tend to fall under the influence of > Russian goverment and several big semi-monopolistic companies, > will be probably able to cope with intra-Russia issues, > but will also serve the interests of Russian business > and politics; it won't be able to serve the interests of > international community. Baltic countries (Latvia, Lithuania, > Estonia) tend to avoid just *any* contact with Russia due > to the reasons above; we in Ukraine aren't so radical, but > our reaction continues to be strictly negative. > > Being an official representative of LIR UA.GU, I'd like to get > a confirmation that our registry will be served by RIPE directly > in the forseeable future. We'd also like to see an > official confirmation from RIPE, of the fact that > any new LIR at Ukrainian territory will *always* be either > served by RIPE directly or will have a choice between > direct service contract from RIPE or indirect -- from other > RIPE office wherever it might be established in future (Moscow, > Berlin, Istambul, Kiev... who cares?) > > Thanks a lot for your attention. > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > > > > > > > From rimas at taide.lt Mon Feb 2 21:08:23 1998 From: rimas at taide.lt (Rimas Janusauskas) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:08:23 +0200 (WET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Andrew Stesin wrote: ...skipped > A RIR in Russia, which will tend to fall under the influence of > Russian goverment and several big semi-monopolistic companies, > will be probably able to cope with intra-Russia issues, > but will also serve the interests of Russian business > and politics; it won't be able to serve the interests of > international community. Baltic countries (Latvia, Lithuania, > Estonia) tend to avoid just *any* contact with Russia due > to the reasons above; we in Ukraine aren't so radical, but > our reaction continues to be strictly negative. > Dear Mr. Andrew Stesin, I 'm attaching a message from Mr. A,Platonov on invitation to Moscow meeting (hope he will understand and forgive me): From plat at ripn.net Mon Feb 2 21:07:56 1998 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:12:12 +0300 (MSK) From: Alexei Platonov To: Albertas Ramanauskas Cc: plat at ripn.net, hostmaster at taide.net Subject: Re: ??????????? ?? ????????? ISP [The following text is in the "koi8-r" character set] [Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Hi, According to Albertas Ramanauskas: > > Dear Mr.A.Platonov, > > First of all I want to thank you for invitation to the meeting, > which will be held in Moscow, January 22nd. As we understand, it will be > meeting of working group to discuss RIPE-167 document "A Regional Internet > Registry for the Commonwealth of Independent States". > We have read the document and found out, that Lithuanian LIRs are > beyond the scope of document (also see our correspondence October 3rd). yes, you are right > > We have asked other Lithuania based LIRs express theirs opinion and > have to inform you they also wish to be served by RIPE NCC. > > So far we don't find any obstacles in collaboration with RIPE. > > Believe you will find a solution which is the best for this huge > region. We are looking for close cooperation and partnership. Thank you very much. > > Success and best regards, > //Albertas > > ==================================================== > Albertas Ramanauskas ph. +370 2 72 12 89 > Manager, Taide NOC fax. +370 2 72 76 52 > Liepyno 7, Vilnius mob. +370 99 3 56 01 > Lithuania albertas at taide.lt > http://www.taide.net > ==================================================== > > > Best regards, Alexei Platonov I hope we all need to reject some old sterereotypes and look forward for partnership and cooperation. If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their choise. The only problem, that there are no "domestic" LIRs registered in some CIS countries at all (GE, MD, TM, Tadjikistan), or it's only 1-2 registered (AM, AZ,KG,KZ, UZ) - who will decide on behalf of them)? On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of RIPE NCC. With best regards from "radical and nationalist" :) Rimas Janusauskas, Taide Net Hostmaster ______________________________________________________________________ P.O.Box 543 e-mail: rimas at taide.lt fax/phone: +370 2 223541 LT-2024 Vilnius phone: +370 2 312625 mobile: +370 99 46266 Lithuania ______________________________________________________________________ From rimas at taide.lt Mon Feb 2 21:08:23 1998 From: rimas at taide.lt (Rimas Janusauskas) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:08:23 +0200 (WET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Andrew Stesin wrote: ...skipped > A RIR in Russia, which will tend to fall under the influence of > Russian goverment and several big semi-monopolistic companies, > will be probably able to cope with intra-Russia issues, > but will also serve the interests of Russian business > and politics; it won't be able to serve the interests of > international community. Baltic countries (Latvia, Lithuania, > Estonia) tend to avoid just *any* contact with Russia due > to the reasons above; we in Ukraine aren't so radical, but > our reaction continues to be strictly negative. > Dear Mr. Andrew Stesin, I 'm attaching a message from Mr. A,Platonov on invitation to Moscow meeting (hope he will understand and forgive me): From plat at ripn.net Mon Feb 2 21:07:56 1998 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:12:12 +0300 (MSK) From: Alexei Platonov To: Albertas Ramanauskas Cc: plat at ripn.net, hostmaster at taide.net Subject: Re: ??????????? ?? ????????? ISP [The following text is in the "koi8-r" character set] [Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Hi, According to Albertas Ramanauskas: > > Dear Mr.A.Platonov, > > First of all I want to thank you for invitation to the meeting, > which will be held in Moscow, January 22nd. As we understand, it will be > meeting of working group to discuss RIPE-167 document "A Regional Internet > Registry for the Commonwealth of Independent States". > We have read the document and found out, that Lithuanian LIRs are > beyond the scope of document (also see our correspondence October 3rd). yes, you are right > > We have asked other Lithuania based LIRs express theirs opinion and > have to inform you they also wish to be served by RIPE NCC. > > So far we don't find any obstacles in collaboration with RIPE. > > Believe you will find a solution which is the best for this huge > region. We are looking for close cooperation and partnership. Thank you very much. > > Success and best regards, > //Albertas > > ==================================================== > Albertas Ramanauskas ph. +370 2 72 12 89 > Manager, Taide NOC fax. +370 2 72 76 52 > Liepyno 7, Vilnius mob. +370 99 3 56 01 > Lithuania albertas at taide.lt > http://www.taide.net > ==================================================== > > > Best regards, Alexei Platonov I hope we all need to reject some old sterereotypes and look forward for partnership and cooperation. If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their choise. The only problem, that there are no "domestic" LIRs registered in some CIS countries at all (GE, MD, TM, Tadjikistan), or it's only 1-2 registered (AM, AZ,KG,KZ, UZ) - who will decide on behalf of them)? On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of RIPE NCC. With best regards from "radical and nationalist" :) Rimas Janusauskas, Taide Net Hostmaster ______________________________________________________________________ P.O.Box 543 e-mail: rimas at taide.lt fax/phone: +370 2 223541 LT-2024 Vilnius phone: +370 2 312625 mobile: +370 99 46266 Lithuania ______________________________________________________________________ From wal at rtsnet.ru Tue Feb 3 08:05:59 1998 From: wal at rtsnet.ru (Vladimir Lebedev) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:05:59 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting References: <199802021848.VAA09013@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <34D6C1D7.DFA1C5C@rtsnet.ru> Dear Alexei, Should I remeber our colleagues who establish the Relcom company, one of the largest ISPs in Russia? The same Russian Research Center "Kurchatov Institute". So, RosNIIROS has the same "father" as the Relcom company. Should we delegate RIR rights to RosNIIROS? I think it's rather ritoric question... Vladimir. Alexei Platonov wrote: > Hi, > > No comments on this literary work. > > Sorry, only one: RosNIIROS has been established by the State Committee > for Higher Education and Russian Research Center "Kurchatov Institute". > > Phantom of Relcom Company is still needed ? > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > > According to Andrew Stesin: > > > > Dear Mirjam, dear Daniel, Robert, Mr. Postel, and others, > > > > as ripe-167 story goes on, I'd like to inform you about > > some new impressions and information we got with regard > > to it. > > > > Abstract: Ukrainian LIRs in their vaste majority > > would not agree with the Russian approach there > > and vote against the project of a new RIR in Moscow. > > > > As you already know, a conference of LIR' represantatives > > from Russia took place in Moscow, January 22. Ukrainian > > representatives were also present (4 delegations from > > major Ukrainian LIRs, me among them). During the direct > > conversations with "new RIR in Moscow" project initiators > > many aspects became much more clear. Here my opinions are. > > > > 1. During the meeting, *nothing* from the argumentation > > provided in ripe-167 was > > recognized by community as a sugnificant argument which clarifies > > the "new RIR" approach. Document authors didn't even > > bother defending their former argumentation. I got an opinion > > that argumentation given in ripe-167 was written with the only goal > > to convince RIPE and IANA, it's pretty much irrelevant to > > the current state of affairs here. > > > > 2. It seems that the idea of "new RIR in Moscow" has a plain > > political background, with a scope limited to a single > > (though big) country -- Russia, or even to a single city -- Moscow. > > > > Our Russian collegues are now facing the trend of their goverment > > trying to establish a certain degree of control over > > Internet business in Russia. > > > > They also recognize that IP address space distribution is one > > of the most important things to ISP business. So they decided > > to extend the scope and sugnificance of RosNIIROS registry as much > > as possible, probably in order to prevent "some others" (whos?) > > attempt to monopolise IP space redistribution *in Russia*. > > > > 3. The very idea of defining a "region" for the projected RIR in terms of > > politics, not geography (as opposed to the existing practice) -- is not > > occasional, this is semi-intentional. > > > > The abbreviation "CIS" should really be understood as "a sphere of > > Russian business and political interests". > > > > Some details. Ukraine is a large East European country > > with population of about 50 million > > comparatively educated and skilled people (as opposed to about > > 150+ million population of Russia). The whole territory of > > Ukraine is in European continent. The estimated size of > > Internet (and similar) services market here is comparative to Russian. > > From the other hand, Ukraine got about 3 year delay in social, > > technological et al. development compared to Russia (partially > > due to the fact that Russia monopolized many achievements > > and infrastructure of ex-USSR). So Russia has it's business > > and communication structures being developed faster now and > > the market is more tight so far. > > > > Naturally, Russian companies are interested in joining > > Ukrainian market, where they might become a stronger players. > > Consider also the fact that Ukrainian ISPs all were the > > customers of their Russian collegues (note the ex-USSR > > infrastructure above) some 2-3 years ago, and were > > getting sugnificant amounts of funds from Ukraine. > > > > Being a RIR (esp. in case RIPE will delegate them monopolistic > > rights at the territory mentioned) will let certain people > > and organisations to continue getting their "traditional" funds > > from other countries, as they used to do before. > > > > 4. Also note that RIRs tend to have a sugnificant influence > > on the technical policies and "technical fashion" among their > > customers; also this means access to technical information > > about them and ability to monitor the development > > of their networks. With RIPE (RNA) this is not an issue for us, > > as RIPE doesn't represent any single (or group) entity > > who has strong business interests in Ukraine or anyone > > who is interested in monitoring our development. > > > > And with RosNIIROS this *is* an issue potentially. > > RosNIIROS doesn't represent a voluntary association of > > any kind, there isn't one even in a single Russia so far. > > RosNIIROS is a semi-govermental organization, established as a > > daughter structure of Moscow "Relcom" company; and > > Relcom venture is wellknown for it's numerous and > > continued attempts to become a monopolist on Russian > > Internet services market; and recently lost a sugnificant > > share in Ukrainian market due to rapid development of Ukrainian > > communication infrastructure, which allowed us to get > > a choice of whom to pay for services. > > > > A RIR in Russia, which will tend to fall under the influence of > > Russian goverment and several big semi-monopolistic companies, > > will be probably able to cope with intra-Russia issues, > > but will also serve the interests of Russian business > > and politics; it won't be able to serve the interests of > > international community. Baltic countries (Latvia, Lithuania, > > Estonia) tend to avoid just *any* contact with Russia due > > to the reasons above; we in Ukraine aren't so radical, but > > our reaction continues to be strictly negative. > > > > Being an official representative of LIR UA.GU, I'd like to get > > a confirmation that our registry will be served by RIPE directly > > in the forseeable future. We'd also like to see an > > official confirmation from RIPE, of the fact that > > any new LIR at Ukrainian territory will *always* be either > > served by RIPE directly or will have a choice between > > direct service contract from RIPE or indirect -- from other > > RIPE office wherever it might be established in future (Moscow, > > Berlin, Istambul, Kiev... who cares?) > > > > Thanks a lot for your attention. > > > > Best regards, > > Andrew Stesin > > > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From edd at aic.net Tue Feb 3 10:53:43 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:53:43 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "rimas@taide.lt" at Feb 2, 98 10:08:23 pm Message-ID: <199802030953.NAA24750@aic.net> > If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the > document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country > want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their > choise. The only problem, that there are no "domestic" LIRs registered in > some CIS countries at all (GE, MD, TM, Tadjikistan), or it's only 1-2 > registered (AM, AZ,KG,KZ, UZ) - who will decide on behalf of them)? I agree with your first statement but did not understand the second. What you mean by "who will decide on behalf of them"? We do decide for us. Thanks God there is no USSR anymore. And CIS is an illusion. So if some people in some countries would like to establish RIR in Moscow: Let it be so. AM NIC is not interested. > On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as > Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of > RIPE NCC. Exactemont. > With best regards from "radical and nationalist" :) Well, I don't think it's an issue of nationalism in the common sense of this word: we do not need Moscow's guidance or protection. Rule RIPE NCC in Amsterdam (good city :) Edgar der Danielyan From rimas at taide.lt Tue Feb 3 12:10:23 1998 From: rimas at taide.lt (Rimas Janusauskas) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:10:23 +0200 (WET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802030953.NAA24750@aic.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Edgar Danielyan wrote: > > If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the > > document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country > > want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their > > choise. The only problem, that there are no "domestic" LIRs registered in > > some CIS countries at all (GE, MD, TM, Tadjikistan), or it's only 1-2 > > registered (AM, AZ,KG,KZ, UZ) - who will decide on behalf of them)? > > I agree with your first statement but did not understand the second. What you > mean by "who will decide on behalf of them"? We do decide for us. Thanks > God there is no USSR anymore. And CIS is an illusion. So if some people > in some countries would like to establish RIR in Moscow: Let it be so. > AM NIC is not interested. > I expect, that national LIRs in CIS countries need to decide by which RIR they prefer to be served. The decision must be made on a voluntary basis. Which RIR will serve GE, MD, TM homed LIRs if there no LIRs who need to decide? Could decision of the only existing LIR will be compulsory regulation for future established LIRs? I couldn't found strict answers on questions above in document. RIPE-167 states: "Local registries in the region would continue to have a service agreement with the RIPE NCC but have the option to receive service according to their preference from either RosNIIROS or the RIPE NCC, but not both at the same time." IMO, every LIR is free to decide about the RIR they want to be served, and it could happen, that LIRs at the same country will be served by different RIRs. As I understand, the main difference will be service language: official working language of RIPE NCC will be English, RosNIIROS will serve their Russian speaking customers. In that case it must be clearly stated in document. Maybe the title of document "A Regional Internet Registry for the Commonwealth of Independent States" isn't well turned and could be changed to "A Regional Internet Registry for the Russian speaking community"? > Rule RIPE NCC in Amsterdam (good city :) With no doubt! And RIPE NCC has a really pretty team. :) Rimas Janusauskas, Taide Net Hostmaster ______________________________________________________________________ P.O.Box 543 e-mail: rimas at taide.lt fax/phone: +370 2 223541 LT-2024 Vilnius phone: +370 2 312625 mobile: +370 99 46266 Lithuania ______________________________________________________________________ From dostalek at pvt.net Fri Feb 6 05:52:33 1998 From: dostalek at pvt.net (Libor Dostalek) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 06:52:33 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting References: Message-ID: <34DA9711.7FCBE2C3@pvt.net> Rimas Janusauskas wrote: > If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the > document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country > want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their > choise. You are not right. Internet is worldwide, but people in some countrieshave only restricted Internet conectivity - there is a censorship on Internet in some countries. In some countries, religion is censoring, in others it is sex. There are countries where Internet is accessible only for designated group of citizens. If we keep silence, we could live to only restricted connectivity in our country in the future, too. Democracy brought to me not only the possibility to buy tropical fruits, but especially if I wish to connect to the Internet, I may send my requirements to Amsterodam - without any permission from Moscow. Unfortunately there is no law of nations for Internet like the Geneva Convention. There are no human rights for Internet. The Internet is based on keeping the word only. It is necessary to be very careful if one wants to delegate authority to countries without democracy traditions. In that case, there is the possibility to create areas with resticted Internet access. For example, the areas with restricted Internet access could be created for rebulic fighting for Independecy. Mr. Andrew Stesin informs European Internet Community of his impressions from Moscow meeting. I think, his doubts are well-founded. For example, the main reason for establishing RIR in CIS are the time zone differences (I know this problem. Time zone differences are unpleasant. It's quite normal in e-mail correspondence between Europa and America, to exchange 1 mail daily only due to time differences). Reading RIPE-167, I expected establishing LIR office for example in Novosibirsk and not in Moscow. Between Moscow and Amsterodam there is only 2 hours time difference. I do not understand the attempt to establish the LIR in Moscow, when RIPE NCC is the best office in the World. > On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as > Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of > RIPE NCC. China can't be served by RIPE, China is served by Asia Pacific NetworkInformatin Center (look at http://www.apnic.net). Libor Dostalek The Czech Republic From wal at rtsnet.ru Tue Feb 3 08:05:59 1998 From: wal at rtsnet.ru (Vladimir Lebedev) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:05:59 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting References: <199802021848.VAA09013@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <34D6C1D7.DFA1C5C@rtsnet.ru> Dear Alexei, Should I remeber our colleagues who establish the Relcom company, one of the largest ISPs in Russia? The same Russian Research Center "Kurchatov Institute". So, RosNIIROS has the same "father" as the Relcom company. Should we delegate RIR rights to RosNIIROS? I think it's rather ritoric question... Vladimir. Alexei Platonov wrote: > Hi, > > No comments on this literary work. > > Sorry, only one: RosNIIROS has been established by the State Committee > for Higher Education and Russian Research Center "Kurchatov Institute". > > Phantom of Relcom Company is still needed ? > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > > According to Andrew Stesin: > > > > Dear Mirjam, dear Daniel, Robert, Mr. Postel, and others, > > > > as ripe-167 story goes on, I'd like to inform you about > > some new impressions and information we got with regard > > to it. > > > > Abstract: Ukrainian LIRs in their vaste majority > > would not agree with the Russian approach there > > and vote against the project of a new RIR in Moscow. > > > > As you already know, a conference of LIR' represantatives > > from Russia took place in Moscow, January 22. Ukrainian > > representatives were also present (4 delegations from > > major Ukrainian LIRs, me among them). During the direct > > conversations with "new RIR in Moscow" project initiators > > many aspects became much more clear. Here my opinions are. > > > > 1. During the meeting, *nothing* from the argumentation > > provided in ripe-167 was > > recognized by community as a sugnificant argument which clarifies > > the "new RIR" approach. Document authors didn't even > > bother defending their former argumentation. I got an opinion > > that argumentation given in ripe-167 was written with the only goal > > to convince RIPE and IANA, it's pretty much irrelevant to > > the current state of affairs here. > > > > 2. It seems that the idea of "new RIR in Moscow" has a plain > > political background, with a scope limited to a single > > (though big) country -- Russia, or even to a single city -- Moscow. > > > > Our Russian collegues are now facing the trend of their goverment > > trying to establish a certain degree of control over > > Internet business in Russia. > > > > They also recognize that IP address space distribution is one > > of the most important things to ISP business. So they decided > > to extend the scope and sugnificance of RosNIIROS registry as much > > as possible, probably in order to prevent "some others" (whos?) > > attempt to monopolise IP space redistribution *in Russia*. > > > > 3. The very idea of defining a "region" for the projected RIR in terms of > > politics, not geography (as opposed to the existing practice) -- is not > > occasional, this is semi-intentional. > > > > The abbreviation "CIS" should really be understood as "a sphere of > > Russian business and political interests". > > > > Some details. Ukraine is a large East European country > > with population of about 50 million > > comparatively educated and skilled people (as opposed to about > > 150+ million population of Russia). The whole territory of > > Ukraine is in European continent. The estimated size of > > Internet (and similar) services market here is comparative to Russian. > > From the other hand, Ukraine got about 3 year delay in social, > > technological et al. development compared to Russia (partially > > due to the fact that Russia monopolized many achievements > > and infrastructure of ex-USSR). So Russia has it's business > > and communication structures being developed faster now and > > the market is more tight so far. > > > > Naturally, Russian companies are interested in joining > > Ukrainian market, where they might become a stronger players. > > Consider also the fact that Ukrainian ISPs all were the > > customers of their Russian collegues (note the ex-USSR > > infrastructure above) some 2-3 years ago, and were > > getting sugnificant amounts of funds from Ukraine. > > > > Being a RIR (esp. in case RIPE will delegate them monopolistic > > rights at the territory mentioned) will let certain people > > and organisations to continue getting their "traditional" funds > > from other countries, as they used to do before. > > > > 4. Also note that RIRs tend to have a sugnificant influence > > on the technical policies and "technical fashion" among their > > customers; also this means access to technical information > > about them and ability to monitor the development > > of their networks. With RIPE (RNA) this is not an issue for us, > > as RIPE doesn't represent any single (or group) entity > > who has strong business interests in Ukraine or anyone > > who is interested in monitoring our development. > > > > And with RosNIIROS this *is* an issue potentially. > > RosNIIROS doesn't represent a voluntary association of > > any kind, there isn't one even in a single Russia so far. > > RosNIIROS is a semi-govermental organization, established as a > > daughter structure of Moscow "Relcom" company; and > > Relcom venture is wellknown for it's numerous and > > continued attempts to become a monopolist on Russian > > Internet services market; and recently lost a sugnificant > > share in Ukrainian market due to rapid development of Ukrainian > > communication infrastructure, which allowed us to get > > a choice of whom to pay for services. > > > > A RIR in Russia, which will tend to fall under the influence of > > Russian goverment and several big semi-monopolistic companies, > > will be probably able to cope with intra-Russia issues, > > but will also serve the interests of Russian business > > and politics; it won't be able to serve the interests of > > international community. Baltic countries (Latvia, Lithuania, > > Estonia) tend to avoid just *any* contact with Russia due > > to the reasons above; we in Ukraine aren't so radical, but > > our reaction continues to be strictly negative. > > > > Being an official representative of LIR UA.GU, I'd like to get > > a confirmation that our registry will be served by RIPE directly > > in the forseeable future. We'd also like to see an > > official confirmation from RIPE, of the fact that > > any new LIR at Ukrainian territory will *always* be either > > served by RIPE directly or will have a choice between > > direct service contract from RIPE or indirect -- from other > > RIPE office wherever it might be established in future (Moscow, > > Berlin, Istambul, Kiev... who cares?) > > > > Thanks a lot for your attention. > > > > Best regards, > > Andrew Stesin > > > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From edd at aic.net Tue Feb 3 10:53:43 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:53:43 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "rimas@taide.lt" at Feb 2, 98 10:08:23 pm Message-ID: <199802030953.NAA24750@aic.net> > If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the > document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country > want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their > choise. The only problem, that there are no "domestic" LIRs registered in > some CIS countries at all (GE, MD, TM, Tadjikistan), or it's only 1-2 > registered (AM, AZ,KG,KZ, UZ) - who will decide on behalf of them)? I agree with your first statement but did not understand the second. What you mean by "who will decide on behalf of them"? We do decide for us. Thanks God there is no USSR anymore. And CIS is an illusion. So if some people in some countries would like to establish RIR in Moscow: Let it be so. AM NIC is not interested. > On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as > Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of > RIPE NCC. Exactemont. > With best regards from "radical and nationalist" :) Well, I don't think it's an issue of nationalism in the common sense of this word: we do not need Moscow's guidance or protection. Rule RIPE NCC in Amsterdam (good city :) Edgar der Danielyan From dostalek at pvt.net Fri Feb 6 05:52:33 1998 From: dostalek at pvt.net (Libor Dostalek) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 06:52:33 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting References: Message-ID: <34DA9711.7FCBE2C3@pvt.net> Rimas Janusauskas wrote: > If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the > document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country > want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their > choise. You are not right. Internet is worldwide, but people in some countrieshave only restricted Internet conectivity - there is a censorship on Internet in some countries. In some countries, religion is censoring, in others it is sex. There are countries where Internet is accessible only for designated group of citizens. If we keep silence, we could live to only restricted connectivity in our country in the future, too. Democracy brought to me not only the possibility to buy tropical fruits, but especially if I wish to connect to the Internet, I may send my requirements to Amsterodam - without any permission from Moscow. Unfortunately there is no law of nations for Internet like the Geneva Convention. There are no human rights for Internet. The Internet is based on keeping the word only. It is necessary to be very careful if one wants to delegate authority to countries without democracy traditions. In that case, there is the possibility to create areas with resticted Internet access. For example, the areas with restricted Internet access could be created for rebulic fighting for Independecy. Mr. Andrew Stesin informs European Internet Community of his impressions from Moscow meeting. I think, his doubts are well-founded. For example, the main reason for establishing RIR in CIS are the time zone differences (I know this problem. Time zone differences are unpleasant. It's quite normal in e-mail correspondence between Europa and America, to exchange 1 mail daily only due to time differences). Reading RIPE-167, I expected establishing LIR office for example in Novosibirsk and not in Moscow. Between Moscow and Amsterodam there is only 2 hours time difference. I do not understand the attempt to establish the LIR in Moscow, when RIPE NCC is the best office in the World. > On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as > Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of > RIPE NCC. China can't be served by RIPE, China is served by Asia Pacific NetworkInformatin Center (look at http://www.apnic.net). Libor Dostalek The Czech Republic From rimas at taide.lt Tue Feb 3 12:10:23 1998 From: rimas at taide.lt (Rimas Janusauskas) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:10:23 +0200 (WET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802030953.NAA24750@aic.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Edgar Danielyan wrote: > > If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the > > document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country > > want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their > > choise. The only problem, that there are no "domestic" LIRs registered in > > some CIS countries at all (GE, MD, TM, Tadjikistan), or it's only 1-2 > > registered (AM, AZ,KG,KZ, UZ) - who will decide on behalf of them)? > > I agree with your first statement but did not understand the second. What you > mean by "who will decide on behalf of them"? We do decide for us. Thanks > God there is no USSR anymore. And CIS is an illusion. So if some people > in some countries would like to establish RIR in Moscow: Let it be so. > AM NIC is not interested. > I expect, that national LIRs in CIS countries need to decide by which RIR they prefer to be served. The decision must be made on a voluntary basis. Which RIR will serve GE, MD, TM homed LIRs if there no LIRs who need to decide? Could decision of the only existing LIR will be compulsory regulation for future established LIRs? I couldn't found strict answers on questions above in document. RIPE-167 states: "Local registries in the region would continue to have a service agreement with the RIPE NCC but have the option to receive service according to their preference from either RosNIIROS or the RIPE NCC, but not both at the same time." IMO, every LIR is free to decide about the RIR they want to be served, and it could happen, that LIRs at the same country will be served by different RIRs. As I understand, the main difference will be service language: official working language of RIPE NCC will be English, RosNIIROS will serve their Russian speaking customers. In that case it must be clearly stated in document. Maybe the title of document "A Regional Internet Registry for the Commonwealth of Independent States" isn't well turned and could be changed to "A Regional Internet Registry for the Russian speaking community"? > Rule RIPE NCC in Amsterdam (good city :) With no doubt! And RIPE NCC has a really pretty team. :) Rimas Janusauskas, Taide Net Hostmaster ______________________________________________________________________ P.O.Box 543 e-mail: rimas at taide.lt fax/phone: +370 2 223541 LT-2024 Vilnius phone: +370 2 312625 mobile: +370 99 46266 Lithuania ______________________________________________________________________ From Mike.Norris at heanet.ie Tue Feb 10 11:47:10 1998 From: Mike.Norris at heanet.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:47:10 -0000 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802101047.KAA17185@Tierce.hea.ie> > > IMO, every LIR is free to decide about the RIR they want to be served, > and it could happen, that LIRs at the same country will be served by > different RIRs. > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP in APNIC stand for. Regards. Mike Norris From stesin at gu.net Tue Feb 10 13:49:14 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:49:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802030953.NAA24750@aic.net> Message-ID: Hi Edgar, On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Edgar Danielyan wrote: > God there is no USSR anymore. And CIS is an illusion. So if some people > in some countries would like to establish RIR in Moscow: Let it be so. > AM NIC is not interested. Great, we second your point. But consider the following possible scenario: You ask RIPE for service and all of a sudden they politely direct you to Moscow -- "*that* RIR is yours since mid-1998". "Wow!" -- you say -- "but I didn't ask them to care of me! and I didn't even agree to delegate them any right to do so! I want a freedom of choice between two services at least!" "Keep calm man!" -- you get back -- "that's how European democracy works. If you were silent during all that discussion before the decision, and the only ones who were shouting actively were the Moscow guys -- we decided that you just neither care, nor have any negative objections; so this is equal as if you voted `YES', so man, to Moscow is your way!" Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From stesin at gu.net Tue Feb 10 14:03:30 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:03:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Rimas Janusauskas wrote: > Maybe the title of document "A Regional Internet Registry for the > Commonwealth of Independent States" isn't well turned and could be > changed to "A Regional Internet Registry for the Russian speaking > community"? Yeah, "A Volunteer Club of Russian Language Amateurs". :) I personally have an opinion that ripe-167 in it's current form is almost obsolete; the document should be discarded and a new edition of the proposal worked out, this time -- by a *community*, by a group of Russian authors at least, but not a single person who represent a single Moscow organisation. I hope that if "ripe-167-NG" document will be created this way, it will obtain better and solid argumentation and more clear and clean logic inside it. Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From md at dbs.lt Tue Feb 10 16:44:26 1998 From: md at dbs.lt (Moudrick M. Dadashov) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:44:26 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <01bd363a$c5c27320$87402bc3@md> Libor, Actually what you are saying doesn't contradict to what Rimas has said. All he said was that no one country can make a decision [to join the Russian RIR] on behalf of another country. On the other hand, you are absolutely right, we can't compromise a censorship on Internet. Best Regards, Moudrick Dadashov DB Systems, Ltd. - EUnet LITHUANIA -----Original Message----- From: Libor Dostalek To: Rimas Janusauskas Cc: Andrew Stesin ; ncc at ripe.net ; lir-wg at ripe.net Date: 1998 m. Vasaris 10 d. 11:35 Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >Rimas Janusauskas wrote: > >> If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the >> document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country >> want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their >> choise. > >You are not right. Internet is worldwide, but people in some countrieshave only >restricted Internet conectivity - there is a censorship on >Internet in some countries. In some countries, religion is censoring, >in others it is sex. There are countries where Internet is accessible >only for designated group of citizens. > > If we keep silence, we could live to only restricted connectivity in > our country in the future, too. > > Democracy brought to me not only the possibility to buy tropical > fruits, but especially if I wish to connect to the Internet, I may send > my requirements to Amsterodam - without any permission from Moscow. > >Unfortunately there is no law of nations for Internet like the >Geneva Convention. There are no human rights for Internet. The >Internet is based on keeping the word only. > >It is necessary to be very careful if one wants to delegate authority >to countries without democracy traditions. In that case, there is the possibility to >create areas with resticted Internet access. >For example, the areas with restricted Internet access could be >created for rebulic fighting for Independecy. > >Mr. Andrew Stesin informs European Internet Community of his impressions >from Moscow meeting. I think, his doubts are well-founded. For example, the >main reason for establishing RIR in CIS are the time zone differences (I >know this problem. Time zone differences are unpleasant. It's quite normal >in e-mail correspondence between Europa and America, to exchange 1 >mail daily only due to time differences). Reading RIPE-167, I expected establishing LIR >office for example in Novosibirsk and not in Moscow. Between Moscow and Amsterodam >there is only 2 hours time difference. I do not understand the attempt to establish the > LIR in Moscow, when RIPE NCC is the best office in the World. > >> On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as >> Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of >> RIPE NCC. > >China can't be served by RIPE, China is served by Asia Pacific NetworkInformatin Center >(look at http://www.apnic.net). > >Libor Dostalek >The Czech Republic > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 2687 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stesin at gu.net Tue Feb 10 13:49:14 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:49:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802030953.NAA24750@aic.net> Message-ID: Hi Edgar, On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Edgar Danielyan wrote: > God there is no USSR anymore. And CIS is an illusion. So if some people > in some countries would like to establish RIR in Moscow: Let it be so. > AM NIC is not interested. Great, we second your point. But consider the following possible scenario: You ask RIPE for service and all of a sudden they politely direct you to Moscow -- "*that* RIR is yours since mid-1998". "Wow!" -- you say -- "but I didn't ask them to care of me! and I didn't even agree to delegate them any right to do so! I want a freedom of choice between two services at least!" "Keep calm man!" -- you get back -- "that's how European democracy works. If you were silent during all that discussion before the decision, and the only ones who were shouting actively were the Moscow guys -- we decided that you just neither care, nor have any negative objections; so this is equal as if you voted `YES', so man, to Moscow is your way!" Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From stesin at gu.net Tue Feb 10 14:03:30 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:03:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Rimas Janusauskas wrote: > Maybe the title of document "A Regional Internet Registry for the > Commonwealth of Independent States" isn't well turned and could be > changed to "A Regional Internet Registry for the Russian speaking > community"? Yeah, "A Volunteer Club of Russian Language Amateurs". :) I personally have an opinion that ripe-167 in it's current form is almost obsolete; the document should be discarded and a new edition of the proposal worked out, this time -- by a *community*, by a group of Russian authors at least, but not a single person who represent a single Moscow organisation. I hope that if "ripe-167-NG" document will be created this way, it will obtain better and solid argumentation and more clear and clean logic inside it. Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From md at dbs.lt Tue Feb 10 16:44:26 1998 From: md at dbs.lt (Moudrick M. Dadashov) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:44:26 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <01bd363a$c5c27320$87402bc3@md> Libor, Actually what you are saying doesn't contradict to what Rimas has said. All he said was that no one country can make a decision [to join the Russian RIR] on behalf of another country. On the other hand, you are absolutely right, we can't compromise a censorship on Internet. Best Regards, Moudrick Dadashov DB Systems, Ltd. - EUnet LITHUANIA -----Original Message----- From: Libor Dostalek To: Rimas Janusauskas Cc: Andrew Stesin ; ncc at ripe.net ; lir-wg at ripe.net Date: 1998 m. Vasaris 10 d. 11:35 Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >Rimas Janusauskas wrote: > >> If Russia want to establish new RIR, which (according to authors of the >> document) could solve specific problems, let them do it! If any country >> want to join Russian RIR, we have no right to contradict - it's their >> choise. > >You are not right. Internet is worldwide, but people in some countrieshave only >restricted Internet conectivity - there is a censorship on >Internet in some countries. In some countries, religion is censoring, >in others it is sex. There are countries where Internet is accessible >only for designated group of citizens. > > If we keep silence, we could live to only restricted connectivity in > our country in the future, too. > > Democracy brought to me not only the possibility to buy tropical > fruits, but especially if I wish to connect to the Internet, I may send > my requirements to Amsterodam - without any permission from Moscow. > >Unfortunately there is no law of nations for Internet like the >Geneva Convention. There are no human rights for Internet. The >Internet is based on keeping the word only. > >It is necessary to be very careful if one wants to delegate authority >to countries without democracy traditions. In that case, there is the possibility to >create areas with resticted Internet access. >For example, the areas with restricted Internet access could be >created for rebulic fighting for Independecy. > >Mr. Andrew Stesin informs European Internet Community of his impressions >from Moscow meeting. I think, his doubts are well-founded. For example, the >main reason for establishing RIR in CIS are the time zone differences (I >know this problem. Time zone differences are unpleasant. It's quite normal >in e-mail correspondence between Europa and America, to exchange 1 >mail daily only due to time differences). Reading RIPE-167, I expected establishing LIR >office for example in Novosibirsk and not in Moscow. Between Moscow and Amsterodam >there is only 2 hours time difference. I do not understand the attempt to establish the > LIR in Moscow, when RIPE NCC is the best office in the World. > >> On the other hand, nobody could compel 18 Ukrainian LIRs (as well as >> Georgian, Moldavian, Chinese etc.) to be served by RosNIIROS instead of >> RIPE NCC. > >China can't be served by RIPE, China is served by Asia Pacific NetworkInformatin Center >(look at http://www.apnic.net). > >Libor Dostalek >The Czech Republic > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 2687 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rimas at taide.lt Wed Feb 11 18:33:44 1998 From: rimas at taide.lt (Rimas Janusauskas) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:33:44 +0200 (WET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802101047.KAA17185@Tierce.hea.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Mike Norris wrote: > > IMO, every LIR is free to decide about the RIR they want to be served, > > and it could happen, that LIRs at the same country will be served by > > different RIRs. > > > > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP > in APNIC stand for. > > Regards. > > Mike Norris Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! Excerpt from RIPE-167: If has been suggested more than once that the coun- tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from Europe that needed special regional support. Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self censored) Incognita with savage population. FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, Turkmenistan. There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very close to it. IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly invite them clearify the essence. Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. With best regards, Rimas Janusauskas From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Feb 11 20:15:23 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Rimas Janusauskas" at Feb 11, 98 07:33:44 pm Message-ID: <199802111915.VAA06621@office.lucky.net> > > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose > > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those > > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before > > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP > > in APNIC stand for. > > > > Regards. > > > > Mike Norris > > Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! > > Excerpt from RIPE-167: > > If has been suggested more than once that the coun- > tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from > Europe that needed special regional support. Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. > > Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self > censored) Incognita with savage population. It does not matter that much. I mean, I do not take this as an offense. > > FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, > Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, > Turkmenistan. > > There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very > close to it. Addition: "and tend to aim at becoming part of Europian community" > > IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language > (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs. The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. > > If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking > community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian > speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like > hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs > might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, > when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs > in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting some things were made quite obvious 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other votings, decisions and the like. 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been adopted nevertheless. ... I've sent all my remarks w.r.t. Moscow meeting to Mr.Karrenberg and will resend them to the list if there will be some interest > > I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly > invite them clearify the essence. Sorry, but are you that naive? I've told all this during the Moscow meeting. Can you guess the answers? > Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. Sorry, no. The more LIRs will ask questions about RIPE-167, the more obvious it will become what it is really aimed at. The more obvious it will become that the idea of CIS-RIR or FSU-RIR or whatever it will be called, does not meet that much appreciation in CIS/FSU/... The more difficult it will be for Mr.Platonov to advocate CIS-RIR in it's current (proposed) form. Cf. 3 above. > > With best regards, > > Rimas Janusauskas > > > > Yours, -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From plat at ripn.net Wed Feb 11 20:02:34 1998 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:02:34 +0300 (MSK/MSD) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Rimas Janusauskas" at "Feb 11, 98 07:33:44 pm" Message-ID: <199802112325.CAA04657@argo.ripn.net> Hi, 1)New RIR is not pure European, it may include part of Asia. 2)For _our_ situation the only acceptable variant is that the certain country is served by the RIR if 2/3 (or 4/5, or 5/6 ... - we'll decide) of LIRs in this country wish so. By the way, Andrew Stesin knows about this very well - we decided it on ISP meeting in Moscow where he has been present, that's why I don't understand some of his arguments at all. He wants me to confirm this principle once more ? OK, I do it. Thus I'm quite sure that Ukraine will _not_ be included in the area served by the new RIR. May be Rimas is right and this discussion is about nothing ? Regards, Alexei Platonov P.S. And some more. The first stage - RIPE NCC office. If after a year it'll be only Russia that is served by this office, the project will be either stopped or the status of RIPE NCC office will be fixed without further development. According to Rimas Janusauskas: > On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Mike Norris wrote: > > > > IMO, every LIR is free to decide about the RIR they want to be served, > > > and it could happen, that LIRs at the same country will be served by > > > different RIRs. > > > > > > > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose > > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those > > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before > > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP > > in APNIC stand for. > > > > Regards. > > > > Mike Norris > > Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! > > Excerpt from RIPE-167: > > If has been suggested more than once that the coun- > tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from > Europe that needed special regional support. > > Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self > censored) Incognita with savage population. > > FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, > Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, > Turkmenistan. > > There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very > close to it. > > IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language > (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). > > If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking > community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian > speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like > hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs > might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, > when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs > in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. > > I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly > invite them clearify the essence. > Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. > > With best regards, > > Rimas Janusauskas > > > > > From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Thu Feb 12 11:15:18 1998 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:15:18 MET-DST Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <009C1B2F.F6E50E9C.1@cc.univie.ac.at> >P.S. And some more. The first stage - RIPE NCC office. If after a year >it'll be only Russia that is served by this office, the project will be >either stopped or the status of RIPE NCC office will be fixed without >further development. Excuse me? Looks like a bit of confusion or your end of the rope.... Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB (&NIC) Handle: WW144 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Thu Feb 12 11:42:07 1998 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:42:07 MET-DST Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <009C1B33.B5D88AEC.7@cc.univie.ac.at> >If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), While it's probably a good idea to continue the RIPE NCC tradition of employing staff from different regions and with diverse linguistic background, I do *not* agree that "splitting" the RIPE NCC along the lines of language(s) is useful. Btw, this statement is not to be seen as specifically aiming at the Russian language! The very same point holds true for say German or French or Spanish. What we want to preserve across the whole Internet and in particular amongst the registries, is exchange of information, sharing of knowledge and harmonisation of procedures. In the Internet of today, we happen to use the English language for that purpose. (...discussing the reasons for that is probably outside the scope of this discussion :-). Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB (&NIC) Handle: WW144 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edd at aic.net Thu Feb 12 11:56:50 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <009C1B33.B5D88AEC.7@cc.univie.ac.at> from "woeber@cc.univie.ac.at" at Feb 12, 98 11:42:07 am Message-ID: <199802121056.OAA02957@aic.net> > >If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking > >community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian > >speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like > >hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), If the so-called Russian speaking community is going to be a part of present-day Internet, that community has to learn English. Good it or bad, English is a kind of "international language", especially on the net. Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... Anyone from Grand Duchy? > and harmonisation of procedures. In the Internet of today, we happen to > use the English language for that purpose. > (...discussing the reasons for that is probably > outside the scope of this discussion :-). Edgar From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Feb 11 20:15:23 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Rimas Janusauskas" at Feb 11, 98 07:33:44 pm Message-ID: <199802111915.VAA06621@office.lucky.net> > > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose > > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those > > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before > > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP > > in APNIC stand for. > > > > Regards. > > > > Mike Norris > > Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! > > Excerpt from RIPE-167: > > If has been suggested more than once that the coun- > tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from > Europe that needed special regional support. Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. > > Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self > censored) Incognita with savage population. It does not matter that much. I mean, I do not take this as an offense. > > FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, > Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, > Turkmenistan. > > There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very > close to it. Addition: "and tend to aim at becoming part of Europian community" > > IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language > (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs. The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. > > If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking > community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian > speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like > hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs > might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, > when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs > in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting some things were made quite obvious 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other votings, decisions and the like. 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been adopted nevertheless. ... I've sent all my remarks w.r.t. Moscow meeting to Mr.Karrenberg and will resend them to the list if there will be some interest > > I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly > invite them clearify the essence. Sorry, but are you that naive? I've told all this during the Moscow meeting. Can you guess the answers? > Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. Sorry, no. The more LIRs will ask questions about RIPE-167, the more obvious it will become what it is really aimed at. The more obvious it will become that the idea of CIS-RIR or FSU-RIR or whatever it will be called, does not meet that much appreciation in CIS/FSU/... The more difficult it will be for Mr.Platonov to advocate CIS-RIR in it's current (proposed) form. Cf. 3 above. > > With best regards, > > Rimas Janusauskas > > > > Yours, -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From edd at aic.net Thu Feb 12 11:56:50 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <009C1B33.B5D88AEC.7@cc.univie.ac.at> from "woeber@cc.univie.ac.at" at Feb 12, 98 11:42:07 am Message-ID: <199802121056.OAA02957@aic.net> > >If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking > >community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian > >speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like > >hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), If the so-called Russian speaking community is going to be a part of present-day Internet, that community has to learn English. Good it or bad, English is a kind of "international language", especially on the net. Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... Anyone from Grand Duchy? > and harmonisation of procedures. In the Internet of today, we happen to > use the English language for that purpose. > (...discussing the reasons for that is probably > outside the scope of this discussion :-). Edgar From phk at critter.freebsd.dk Thu Feb 12 12:46:35 1998 From: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:46:35 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400." <199802121056.OAA02957@aic.net> Message-ID: <3961.887283995@critter.freebsd.dk> Well, apart from various theoretical speculations about the nature of the human mind and political power structures, I do not normally interest myself much with the former red block countries, but being an inhabitant of this mailing list, I have now followed this thread all the way. The discussion has dragged on far too long, and it must be about now that we can reach some kind of conclusions: 1. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the former red block countries have very great distrust in each other. 2. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the rest of the world have various levels of distrust in the ability of any group in the former red block countries to remain fair, unbiased and non-bribable in the face of 1. and the general situation(s) "over there". With that in mind, I think the most sensible thing is to continue to serve the entire former red block of countries from RIPE in Amsterdam because: A. If support in a particular language is needed in sufficient degree they can hire somebody with that language to do so. B. They are not in any way part in any of the uncountable conflicts of interest which plaque the former red block countries, and are consequently not likely to give preferential treatement. C. They have infrastructure, experience, tools and procedures in place already. D. They have a proven track record which is a lot better than the initial suspicion which will be leveled at any new registry. Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why ? Poul-Henning Kamp, from Denmark, who still remember when you had to stay up late in order to be able to call the SRI-NIC in their timezone and consequently doesn't see this as much of an issue anyway... -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" From edd at aic.net Thu Feb 12 13:00:23 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:00:23 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <3961.887283995@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Feb 12, 98 12:46:35 pm Message-ID: <199802121200.QAA03354@aic.net> > The discussion has dragged on far too long, and it must be about now > that we can reach some kind of conclusions: And hopefully finish it! > 1. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the former red block > countries have very great distrust in each other. Yes. And there are reasons - no need to talk about them here and now, but there are sufficient reasons. > Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why ? Confess, Moscow. Quocunque jeceris stabit. -edd From daiva at sc-uni.ktu.lt Thu Feb 12 13:27:19 1998 From: daiva at sc-uni.ktu.lt (Daiva Tamulioniene) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:27:19 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802112325.CAA04657@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: Hi, > > 1)New RIR is not pure European, it may include part of Asia. Well, then we need to clear up if the Europe needs the second RIR, at all? I guess that part of Asian countries or close to it can ask service in APNIC, if really exist time difference problems as somebody stated earlier. The english language treats as international and everyone especially who serves the Internet community must understand it. So, language is not a problem. > 2)For _our_ situation the only acceptable variant is that the > certain country is served by the RIR if 2/3 (or 4/5, or 5/6 ... - we'll > decide) of LIRs in this country wish so. By the way, Andrew Stesin > > > > IMO, every LIR is free to decide about the RIR they want to be served, > > > > and it could happen, that LIRs at the same country will be served by > > > > different RIRs. And it will happen, I am sure. We should not talk about countries! Every LIR is free to choose the service they want. > > FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, > > Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, > > Turkmenistan. Would be interesting to know the opinion from Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan... Seems they are very timidy.. With regards, Daiva ========================================================================= Daiva Tamulioniene Kaunas University of Technology TLD LT hostmaster LITNET NOC Studentu 48a-101, Kaunas, Lithuania tel. 370-7-762896/ 370-98-36652 fax. 370-7-799925 ========================================================================= From aw at eunet.ch Thu Feb 12 14:25:07 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:25:07 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802121056.OAA02957@aic.net> from "Edgar Danielyan" at Feb 12, 98 02:56:50 pm Message-ID: <199802121325.OAA13008@magnolia.eunet.ch> > Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... > Anyone from Grand Duchy? > No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) Aleks From phk at critter.freebsd.dk Thu Feb 12 12:46:35 1998 From: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:46:35 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400." <199802121056.OAA02957@aic.net> Message-ID: <3961.887283995@critter.freebsd.dk> Well, apart from various theoretical speculations about the nature of the human mind and political power structures, I do not normally interest myself much with the former red block countries, but being an inhabitant of this mailing list, I have now followed this thread all the way. The discussion has dragged on far too long, and it must be about now that we can reach some kind of conclusions: 1. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the former red block countries have very great distrust in each other. 2. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the rest of the world have various levels of distrust in the ability of any group in the former red block countries to remain fair, unbiased and non-bribable in the face of 1. and the general situation(s) "over there". With that in mind, I think the most sensible thing is to continue to serve the entire former red block of countries from RIPE in Amsterdam because: A. If support in a particular language is needed in sufficient degree they can hire somebody with that language to do so. B. They are not in any way part in any of the uncountable conflicts of interest which plaque the former red block countries, and are consequently not likely to give preferential treatement. C. They have infrastructure, experience, tools and procedures in place already. D. They have a proven track record which is a lot better than the initial suspicion which will be leveled at any new registry. Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why ? Poul-Henning Kamp, from Denmark, who still remember when you had to stay up late in order to be able to call the SRI-NIC in their timezone and consequently doesn't see this as much of an issue anyway... -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" From edd at aic.net Thu Feb 12 13:00:23 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:00:23 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <3961.887283995@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Feb 12, 98 12:46:35 pm Message-ID: <199802121200.QAA03354@aic.net> > The discussion has dragged on far too long, and it must be about now > that we can reach some kind of conclusions: And hopefully finish it! > 1. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the former red block > countries have very great distrust in each other. Yes. And there are reasons - no need to talk about them here and now, but there are sufficient reasons. > Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why ? Confess, Moscow. Quocunque jeceris stabit. -edd From aw at eunet.ch Thu Feb 12 14:25:07 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:25:07 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802121056.OAA02957@aic.net> from "Edgar Danielyan" at Feb 12, 98 02:56:50 pm Message-ID: <199802121325.OAA13008@magnolia.eunet.ch> > Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... > Anyone from Grand Duchy? > No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) Aleks From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 01:58:31 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:58:31 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Igor Romanenko on Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802130058.DAA04318@janus.rosmail.com> Greetings, >>>>> "I" == Igor Romanenko writes: I> To: hostmaster at taide.net I> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: Mike.Norris at heanet.ie, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose >> > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those >> > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before >> > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP >> > in APNIC stand for. >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > Mike Norris >> >> Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! >> >> Excerpt from RIPE-167: >> >> If has been suggested more than once that the coun- >> tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from >> Europe that needed special regional support. I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating yet another RIR. I never heard anything about making Ukraine or anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian representatives. And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody who likes to work with it is welcome. >> >> Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self >> censored) Incognita with savage population. I> It does not matter that much. I mean, I do not take this as an offense. >> >> FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, >> Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, >> Turkmenistan. >> >> There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very >> close to it. I> Addition: "and tend to aim at becoming part of Europian community" >> >> IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language >> (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs. For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. I like that manner to speak for all. Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to allow them to use Internet? And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots of people who can understand documents in English but not write something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and for that matter other CIS countries ) I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of them -- why to neglect it? >> >> If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >> community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >> speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >> hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs >> might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, >> when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs >> in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting I> some things were made quite obvious I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other I> votings, decisions and the like. I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been I> adopted nevertheless. I> ... However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights to choose. I> I've sent all my remarks w.r.t. Moscow meeting to Mr.Karrenberg and will I> resend them to the list if there will be some interest >> >> I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly >> invite them clearify the essence. I> Sorry, but are you that naive? I've told all this during the Moscow meeting. I> Can you guess the answers? >> Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. I> Sorry, no. The more LIRs will ask questions about RIPE-167, the more I> obvious it will become what it is really aimed at. The more obvious I> it will become that the idea of CIS-RIR or FSU-RIR or whatever it will I> be called, does not meet that much appreciation in CIS/FSU/... I> The more difficult it will be for Mr.Platonov to advocate CIS-RIR I> in it's current (proposed) form. Cf. 3 above. >> >> With best regards, >> >> Rimas Janusauskas >> >> >> >> I> Yours, I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 02:05:21 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:05:21 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Edgar Danielyan on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400 (GMT) Message-ID: <199802130105.EAA04352@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "E" == Edgar Danielyan writes: E> To: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at E> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400 (GMT) E> Cc: hostmaster at taide.net, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> >If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >> >community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >> >speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >> >hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), E> If the so-called Russian speaking community is going to be a part of present-day E> Internet, that community has to learn English. E> Good it or bad, English is a kind of "international language", especially on E> the net. Sure. But it will take time. Rather long time. E> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... E> Anyone from Grand Duchy? >> and harmonisation of procedures. In the Internet of today, we happen to >> use the English language for that purpose. >> (...discussing the reasons for that is probably >> outside the scope of this discussion :-). E> Edgar -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From rimas at taide.lt Fri Feb 13 14:31:28 1998 From: rimas at taide.lt (Rimas Janusauskas) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:31:28 +0200 (WET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802112325.CAA04657@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > Hi, > > 1)New RIR is not pure European, it may include part of Asia. > 2)For _our_ situation the only acceptable variant is that the > certain country is served by the RIR if 2/3 (or 4/5, or 5/6 ... - we'll > decide) of LIRs in this country wish so. By the way, Andrew Stesin > knows about this very well - we decided it on ISP meeting in Moscow where > he has been present, that's why I don't understand some of his arguments > at all. He wants me to confirm this principle once more ? OK, I do it. > Thus I'm quite sure that Ukraine will _not_ be included in the area > served by the new RIR. Thank you Alexei, It's a good basis for discussion. Maybe I'll look boring nuisance, but I need to remind: Developments of the last few years however suggest that it is difficult for the RIPE NCC to serve all parts of this area because in practise there exist a number of practical problems. These problems have to do with circumstances caused by: - local language problems - time zone differences - travel difficulties - effort necessary to organise coordination meetings Questions and comments: 1. Why I could not found any explanation what the main diffrence between RIPE NCC and RIPN is? I supposed, that it will be working language, but you neither confirmed nor refuted my suspicion. If working language of new RIR will be English, please describe the problem named "local language problems" in more details. 2. Moscow mean time differs from Amsterdam EET +2h. Do these two hours is a real problem for registries in CIS countries (except Russian East) 3. No complains. Visa requirements, etc.etc.etc. 4. Moscow meeting has proved, that it's not a problem to arrange regional meetings. I think RIPE community will meet your efforts to arrange RIPE meeting somewhere in CIS with understanding. Suggestions: 1. If RIPE community will found establishing of new RIR in CIS(Russia) desirable, do you see any problem, that LIRs will choose between 2 European RIRs? In some countries (including Russia) p[art of LIRs will be served by RIPE NCC and part by RIPN. If RIPN will prove, that their service is on the same or higher level than RIPE NCC is providing, LIRs will turn back to RIPN. 2. Administrative decision for whole country must be considered as inadmissible. At present only some countries could express their average position by LIRs voting. What could we say about _2/3 (or 4/5, or 5/6...)_ LIRs in appropriate country, when we coud not found them at all!!! Situation could became very unstable, if newly established LIR's (for ex. in Kazakhstan it will be enaugh 2 or 3) will decide, that _ALL_ LIRs in their country starting from Day V. might be served by another RIR. >From the other hand, it's not so very important where the LIR is registered (where the admin-c resides). 3. During the first step new RIR must be run under supervision from RIPE NCC, probably in position of GM to achieve the same service level and have the same policy and procedures. Most important is to have RIR really independant and working for whole community. Hope, that your reply could settle down the discussion to more constructive mode. With best regards, Rimas P.S. Sorry to be so slow-minded. Now I understand the keynote idea of Mike Norris: OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP in APNIC stand for. Yes, I could confirm, that R in RIPN stands for Russia and is not associated with me anyhow. :) r. From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 02:05:21 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:05:21 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Edgar Danielyan on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400 (GMT) Message-ID: <199802130105.EAA04352@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "E" == Edgar Danielyan writes: E> To: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at E> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:56:50 +0400 (GMT) E> Cc: hostmaster at taide.net, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> >If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >> >community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >> >speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >> >hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), E> If the so-called Russian speaking community is going to be a part of present-day E> Internet, that community has to learn English. E> Good it or bad, English is a kind of "international language", especially on E> the net. Sure. But it will take time. Rather long time. E> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... E> Anyone from Grand Duchy? >> and harmonisation of procedures. In the Internet of today, we happen to >> use the English language for that purpose. >> (...discussing the reasons for that is probably >> outside the scope of this discussion :-). E> Edgar -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 01:58:31 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:58:31 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Igor Romanenko on Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802130058.DAA04318@janus.rosmail.com> Greetings, >>>>> "I" == Igor Romanenko writes: I> To: hostmaster at taide.net I> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: Mike.Norris at heanet.ie, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose >> > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those >> > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before >> > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP >> > in APNIC stand for. >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > Mike Norris >> >> Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! >> >> Excerpt from RIPE-167: >> >> If has been suggested more than once that the coun- >> tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from >> Europe that needed special regional support. I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating yet another RIR. I never heard anything about making Ukraine or anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian representatives. And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody who likes to work with it is welcome. >> >> Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self >> censored) Incognita with savage population. I> It does not matter that much. I mean, I do not take this as an offense. >> >> FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, >> Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, >> Turkmenistan. >> >> There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very >> close to it. I> Addition: "and tend to aim at becoming part of Europian community" >> >> IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language >> (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs. For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. I like that manner to speak for all. Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to allow them to use Internet? And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots of people who can understand documents in English but not write something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and for that matter other CIS countries ) I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of them -- why to neglect it? >> >> If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >> community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >> speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >> hostmaster-ru at ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs >> might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, >> when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs >> in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting I> some things were made quite obvious I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other I> votings, decisions and the like. I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been I> adopted nevertheless. I> ... However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights to choose. I> I've sent all my remarks w.r.t. Moscow meeting to Mr.Karrenberg and will I> resend them to the list if there will be some interest >> >> I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly >> invite them clearify the essence. I> Sorry, but are you that naive? I've told all this during the Moscow meeting. I> Can you guess the answers? >> Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. I> Sorry, no. The more LIRs will ask questions about RIPE-167, the more I> obvious it will become what it is really aimed at. The more obvious I> it will become that the idea of CIS-RIR or FSU-RIR or whatever it will I> be called, does not meet that much appreciation in CIS/FSU/... I> The more difficult it will be for Mr.Platonov to advocate CIS-RIR I> in it's current (proposed) form. Cf. 3 above. >> >> With best regards, >> >> Rimas Janusauskas >> >> >> >> I> Yours, I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From rimas at taide.lt Fri Feb 13 14:31:28 1998 From: rimas at taide.lt (Rimas Janusauskas) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:31:28 +0200 (WET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802112325.CAA04657@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > Hi, > > 1)New RIR is not pure European, it may include part of Asia. > 2)For _our_ situation the only acceptable variant is that the > certain country is served by the RIR if 2/3 (or 4/5, or 5/6 ... - we'll > decide) of LIRs in this country wish so. By the way, Andrew Stesin > knows about this very well - we decided it on ISP meeting in Moscow where > he has been present, that's why I don't understand some of his arguments > at all. He wants me to confirm this principle once more ? OK, I do it. > Thus I'm quite sure that Ukraine will _not_ be included in the area > served by the new RIR. Thank you Alexei, It's a good basis for discussion. Maybe I'll look boring nuisance, but I need to remind: Developments of the last few years however suggest that it is difficult for the RIPE NCC to serve all parts of this area because in practise there exist a number of practical problems. These problems have to do with circumstances caused by: - local language problems - time zone differences - travel difficulties - effort necessary to organise coordination meetings Questions and comments: 1. Why I could not found any explanation what the main diffrence between RIPE NCC and RIPN is? I supposed, that it will be working language, but you neither confirmed nor refuted my suspicion. If working language of new RIR will be English, please describe the problem named "local language problems" in more details. 2. Moscow mean time differs from Amsterdam EET +2h. Do these two hours is a real problem for registries in CIS countries (except Russian East) 3. No complains. Visa requirements, etc.etc.etc. 4. Moscow meeting has proved, that it's not a problem to arrange regional meetings. I think RIPE community will meet your efforts to arrange RIPE meeting somewhere in CIS with understanding. Suggestions: 1. If RIPE community will found establishing of new RIR in CIS(Russia) desirable, do you see any problem, that LIRs will choose between 2 European RIRs? In some countries (including Russia) p[art of LIRs will be served by RIPE NCC and part by RIPN. If RIPN will prove, that their service is on the same or higher level than RIPE NCC is providing, LIRs will turn back to RIPN. 2. Administrative decision for whole country must be considered as inadmissible. At present only some countries could express their average position by LIRs voting. What could we say about _2/3 (or 4/5, or 5/6...)_ LIRs in appropriate country, when we coud not found them at all!!! Situation could became very unstable, if newly established LIR's (for ex. in Kazakhstan it will be enaugh 2 or 3) will decide, that _ALL_ LIRs in their country starting from Day V. might be served by another RIR. registered (where the admin-c resides). 3. During the first step new RIR must be run under supervision from RIPE NCC, probably in position of GM to achieve the same service level and have the same policy and procedures. Most important is to have RIR really independant and working for whole community. Hope, that your reply could settle down the discussion to more constructive mode. With best regards, Rimas P.S. Sorry to be so slow-minded. Now I understand the keynote idea of Mike Norris: OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP in APNIC stand for. Yes, I could confirm, that R in RIPN stands for Russia and is not associated with me anyhow. :) r. From igor at office.lucky.net Fri Feb 13 17:08:21 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:08:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802130058.DAA04318@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 13, 98 03:58:31 am Message-ID: <199802131608.SAA00553@office.lucky.net> > >> Excerpt from RIPE-167: > >> > >> If has been suggested more than once that the coun- > >> tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from > >> Europe that needed special regional support. > > I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. > > IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating > yet another RIR. Well, I meant that the definition of "region" in RIPE-167 is _political_ rather then _geographical_. Why so? If I remember correctly, TZ difference in Moscow and Far East is 9 hours ("Moscow time is 3 p.m.,... it's midnight in Petropavlosk-Kamchatsky" (c) Moscow radio ;). So why insist on TZ difference as the argument for RIR creation? (Note, this is only one example of contradictions or, better to say, inconsistencies in RIPE-167). > I never heard anything about making Ukraine or > anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting > nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian > representatives. Ukrainian representatives (and yours truly in particular) asked the following questions and got the following answers: Q: Will the alternative service be preserved in the future? A: No, it is not feasible for RIPE. Q: Then what will be after the trial period? A: LIRs will have no choice as to from what RIR they can get service. Q: How will it be decided who is served by what RIR? A: By some kind of voting. And now look at the meeting's statement (I've already quoted appropriate part of it). Q: How could this meeting, where there are representatives from Russia and Ukraine make decisions for other countries? A: It is not democratical centralism, we are talking about - it's European democracy. If representatives from other countries did not come, it is taken as a sign that they do not care, so we'll decide for them. (I'm _not_ sure about wording - anyway we have a copy of all the discussion on an audio tape ;) > And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? > It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by > APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok > as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody > who likes to work with it is welcome. See above w.r.t. TZ differences as an example. > >> IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language > >> (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). > > I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries > I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. > I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well > I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. > I like that manner to speak for all. Where had I tried to speak "for all"? When I insisted on the existence of, say, Armenian language? Hope you are not going to deny it's existence ;) > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, it seems that the two statements underlined above are not that far from each other. > Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking > people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned ^^^^^^^^^ > to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to > allow them to use Internet? Sorry, LIR's personnel is _not_ "everybody". And why, on Earth should people, who are just _using_ the Internet contact RIR directly? > > And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who > does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots > of people who can understand documents in English but not write > something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and > for that matter other CIS countries ) How are they working with RIPE now? ;) > > I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment > I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. > > Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which > have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of > them -- why to neglect it? OK, so should this be one of the _main_ arguments for RIR creation? And again, when you are speaking about Russia - you are absolutely right, Not so for most other CIS countries, where rouble is a foreign currency. > I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting > I> some things were made quite obvious > I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test > I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. > > If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the > RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by > RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. No prob. iff the choice will be free for _every_ LIR and iff _all_ newly established LIRs will have this choice from now on. Unfortunately, this is nearly equivalent to continuing alternative service. > > I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. > I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow > I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be > I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, > I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" > I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). > I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs > I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that > I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ > I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other > I> votings, decisions and the like. > I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent > I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication > I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". > I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: > I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them > I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been > I> adopted nevertheless. You have not commented on this. Do you agree with the possibilities outlined above? > I> ... > > However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. It seemed the only reasonable way to make the community hear our voice. Otherwise it would be mere "20 for, 4 against, everything is just fine" > > Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting > resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. And later Russian Academy of Sciences pretended to be the founder of new RIR instead of RIPN. And during the meeting some Russian LIRs voted against the statement. So what? > > My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not > want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the > other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is > good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would > make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who > would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights > to choose. Please, stop thinking in "country" categories. Paraphrasing you: "LIRs in any country are independent and have all rights to choose." Now, please, reread your own words: "RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it." ^^^^^^^^^ So, how will you decide if _the country_ would like to join it? Some LIRs would, some would not. And _making_ them to follow your way just because initially 2 or three of them agreed to this is... khm... non-democratic. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From plat at ripn.net Fri Feb 13 19:34:32 1998 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:34:32 +0300 (MSK/MSD) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Rimas Janusauskas" at "Feb 13, 98 03:31:28 pm" Message-ID: <199802131834.VAA02906@argo.ripn.net> > > > .... Hi, Sorry, but I decided not to answer questions, but to outline my position once more. >From the discussion that is going on in lir-wg anyone can learn that RosNIIROS (RIPN) invented some reasons for estabishing RIR and is trying by that means to put Internet in FSU under the control of "Moscow Hand". OK, you may think so. But I'd like to mention that I'm not a politic and I'm not interested to control anybody. The question is quite practical: several years ago several LIRs asked me to support these services as far as it was convenient for them to work with RosNIIROS. I think it's not very interesting to discuss "why?" - it's just a fact. Now this group contains about 40 LIRs. Of course, you can suspect that all of them are my friends, and I asked them to do it. But I hope that this will not be seriously discussed :-) We all (including FSU) live now in market economics and we know very well that if there is a demand for some kind of service, this service is to be given. Now I just think how to give _good_ service and the way: RIPE NCC office -> RIR seems me a good variant. Even more - it seems to me that this is the only way for a large number of LIRs working on this territory to get the service _they want_. Of course, I'm not so crasy to think that _all_ LIRs here want the same. For some of them it'll be better to be served by RIPE NCC at least because of some difference between Amsterdam and Moscow :-) (by the way, Amsterdam is my favourite city ... after Moscow :-) ) And some words about the proposed transition. I hope that the first stage is quite clear for everybody. This is the establishment of RIPE NCC office in Moscow and the improvement of service that _is already delivered_, under the guidance of RIPE NCC. I think it will take 4-5 months. The service is provided on alternative basis - anyone can choose the point of service (Moscow or Amsterdam). Moscow office will provide service on the base of two languages - English and Russian, and you may choose what you want. Second stage is much more complicated, and principles of transition to RIR are not clear yet. Just one example that is discussed actively: this new RIR serves the territory or LIRs? I think the second variant is democratic (and I like it) - any LIR can choose by what RIR is to be served. But this contradicts existing principles providing stable service. There are a lot of other questions and I hope that the newly established working group open to all interested LIRs will try to answer some of these questions. Let's resume: 1) There are some LIRs in Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus (about 40-45) that want to work within proposed scheme. The increase is 4-5 per month. 2) The 2-stage scheme is soft and doesn't contradict existing principles. 3) The "FSU-NIC" project is under the full control of RIPE NCC and IANA. 4) The project can be cancelled at any moment. What about to try ? Regards, Alexei Platonov From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 21:59:47 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:59:47 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: "aw@eunet.ch"'s message of Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:25:07 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <199802132059.XAA06219@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Alex Wilansky writes: A> To: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) A> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:25:07 +0100 (MET) A> Cc: hostmaster at taide.net, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... >> Anyone from Grand Duchy? >> A> No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not A> insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the A> internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english A> shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the A> communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in A> Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) Quite right, Alex. It is okay about Moscow, St Petersbourg and some other cities. And we are connecting other regions where it is not so. Think it would be better if people all over the world spoke the only language, but is it possible? Hope it would change ( English language in Russia and ex-USSR countries ) but God knows when. And things would run better if we have office speaking English to all the world and Russian to people which have not learned English good enough yet. A> Aleks Sergey -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 22:03:57 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:03:57 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Edgar Danielyan on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:00:23 +0400 (GMT) Message-ID: <199802132103.AAA06270@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "E" == Edgar Danielyan writes: E> To: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) E> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:00:23 +0400 (GMT) E> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net >> The discussion has dragged on far too long, and it must be about now >> that we can reach some kind of conclusions: E> And hopefully finish it! >> 1. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the former red block >> countries have very great distrust in each other. Far not all of them, if you take a look at that matter. There still is much in common after all that. E> Yes. And there are reasons - no need to talk about them here and now, but E> there are sufficient reasons. >> Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why ? E> Confess, Moscow. E> Quocunque jeceris stabit. E> -edd -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From aw at eunet.ch Sat Feb 14 12:54:21 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:54:21 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802132059.XAA06219@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 13, 98 11:59:47 pm Message-ID: <199802141154.MAA19932@magnolia.eunet.ch> > Sergey A. Mukhin writes: > >> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... > >> Anyone from Grand Duchy? > >> > > A> No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not > A> insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the > A> internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english > A> shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the > A> communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in > A> Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) > > Quite right, Alex. It is okay about Moscow, St Petersbourg and some other > cities. And we are connecting other regions where it is not so. Think > it would be better if people all over the world spoke the only language, > but is it possible? Hope it would change ( English language in Russia and > ex-USSR countries ) but God knows when. And things would run better if > we have office speaking English to all the world and Russian to people > which have not learned English good enough yet. > > Here in Switzerland, not matter what, you have to speak English in order to deal effectively with our verious clients and admnistrate a our part of a network which uses English as the de-facto language. Sure, we use German, French and Italian daily with our customers, but on the international admin level, English is it. No question, no argumaents. Granted, as a lingua franca English is relatively young, but I prefer it over Latin and Greek. Who knows what will emerge as the next international language but the end of the next century ( I suspect it will be Chinese), but it is not important. English is the administrative languag of the net, just as it is for aviation. So be it. Most people can quickly learn enough bad English to be understood and to understand, and, coming from Russian, I can't say the same for that deeply beautiful and nuanced language. To add to this point, while Russian is of course easier for a Moscow-base office, for the Russians, if it is admistrating the CIS or some version of slavic blocks, don't you think that many of the other slavic nations will be offended by being forced to use Russian. (In my dealings with the Poles recently, although they grudgingly permitted me to use Russian from time to time, they were truly appreciative by my refusal to do so, since I had no wish to offend them. Same for the Ukranians.) There are many sensitivities here.... English is more neutral........ Lots of good reasons to keep English in place... Aleks From prc at co.ip.pt Sat Feb 14 16:39:40 1998 From: prc at co.ip.pt (Pedro Ramalho Carlos) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:39:40 +0000 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: References: <199802112325.CAA04657@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980214153940.00f2b990@jaguar.ip.pt> Dear All, Having lurked into this long and IMHO very indecisive discussing, please bear with someone that is on the geographical opposite side of the E in RIPE (Portugal). I tend to agree that the main justification, both in RIPE167 and the discussion in this list, for creating a new RIR, is based on the following main points: a) There are language problems communicating with the existing RIR (RIPE); b) There are time zone differences that make communication difficult; c) There are currency/payment difficulties for local ISPs; d) There are travel difficulties to attend RIPE meetings; Since we live in a country where: 1. There are a lot less English teachers per capita than in the considered region for the new RIR; 2. TZ difference has never been an issue communicating over the Internet even when we had to resort to IANA in California (8 hour TZ difference) a long time ago, and still today for other issues; 3. Burocracy and high bank services costs are high; 4. Travelling to central Europe is both very expensive and time inefficient; 5. Nevertheless, we consider to be much better off, in regard to all these issues, than many other countries also served by RIPE, in other large geographical areas and continents (Africa is paradigmatic). I tend to believe that there is no solid justification for a 1st tier RIR for the aforementioned region: 1. If a prospective RIR client, which from now on I'll generalize as being a LIR-ISP, in that geographical area has a problem with the Internet "lingua franca", English, needed for a relatively easy and well "procedured" dialog with the RIR, then we believe that this ISP is better off not being a LIR-ISP, and get their "IR service" from their upstream transit provider. Unrelated to this issue, I'm inclined to propose that it should be a MANDATORY requirement for any LIR-ISP to have 24 hour English speaking staff available, since in addition to IR issues, there are still so many operational issues that can affect everyone, that having "language problems" can be a potential nightmare when some English-impaired ISP starts BGP announcing your address space over some major backbone, or any similarly disrupting and urgent to resolve issues. 2. TZ difference is a non-issue IMHO. If it is such an important problem maybe the eastern/Asia part of Russia and other FSU countries should get their service from APNIC. And arguments like "we provide service from Moscow to Vladivostok" sound bogus, since I tend to believe that a large ISP that spans Europe and Asia will not have two or more internal departments dealing with "IR" issues. It will have one, and I guess that if it's based in western Russia it will prefer RIPE and if it's based in Eastern Siberia it will prefer APNIC (but if they have two, perhaps they should concentrate their efforts combining those depts, instead of trying to creating one RIR for each department, or turning one the departments into a RIR...) (As a side note, we may have to assign IP addresses to clients in Macao, that is 10 TZ away from Lisbon, or Timor (12 hours) for that matter :-)) 3. Payment difficulties seems like another somewhat bogus, if understandable issue. I believe that today there are very few countries where it is really difficult to make foreign currency payments. And IMHO, the countries in the FSU are not worse of, on the contrary, than most African and a least one big island in the Caribbean. Of course, small "Mom-and-Po shops" will have more difficulty to get this handled, but they will also have a lot more difficulty dealing with tons of other issues than larger companies. So it's a fact of life, and unless one wants a RIR for every "currency zone" in the world, we should all be able to live with it. If there are countries where, because of the local political regime, there is no way to make the RIPE payment, I'm sure the RIPE community will find a imaginative way of getting them service. 4. Travel difficulties are yet another very weak argument in the context of the RIR and Internet in general. The number and the necessity to attend meetings physically is IMHO quite low. a) we have alternative ways of communicating our points of view, sometimes in a more focused way through email, than in live meetings (this email, is of course a notable exception); b) we can raise issues that are relevant to a number of LIRs and have one representative flown in for a live meeting. I'm afraid that again this is a fact of life: dutch ISPs will always have an advantage in this regard while the RIPE-NCC is based in Amsterdam. In fact Amsterdam ISPs are better off than "some little town in the north of Holland" ISPs. In addition I'm afraid that RIPE-NCC and its coordinator(s) have created a trust relationship with LIR's that makes LIRs very comfortable with the way things are handled. All in all I believe that with such a weak justification, creating a precedent would make room for a lot more RIR's: the Iberian RIR, The British Isles RIR, the Scandinavian RIR, The Basque RIR, the Atlantic Islands RIR, the Magreb RIR, the Central African RIR, the Southern African RIR, etc. (To make this even clearer, if RIPN is created, I believe that we will contact our spanish friends and propose an Iberian RIR to be based in Lisbon, because the weather here much better than in Amsterdam, and that is defintely a better justification than any of the aforementioned ones:). Of course, whether we should have competing RIRs for the same region is quite a different issue. However for the time being the "de-facto" monopoly for IR services is well supported by all LIRs I guess, mainly because the quality of RIPE-NCC services probably is still a model for most LIR-ISP even those in competitive environments :-). Just my long 2 cEU --- pedro ramalho carlos Pedro.Carlos at co.ip.pt IP SA tel: +351-1-3166724 Av. Duque de Avila, 23 fax: +351-1-3166701 1000 LISBOA - PORTUGAL PGP Key fingerprint = B7 45 B2 F9 F3 1F 67 19 1F 24 76 67 8D F6 2C B2 From violet at rosnet.net Sun Feb 15 22:01:05 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:01:05 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: "aw@eunet.ch"'s message of Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:54:21 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <199802152101.AAA09908@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Alex Wilansky writes: A> To: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) A> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:54:21 +0100 (MET) A> Cc: edd at aic.net, hostmaster at taide.net, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net, aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) >> Sergey A. Mukhin writes: >> >> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... >> >> Anyone from Grand Duchy? >> >> >> A> No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not A> insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the A> internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english A> shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the A> communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in A> Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) >> >> Quite right, Alex. It is okay about Moscow, St Petersbourg and some other >> cities. And we are connecting other regions where it is not so. Think >> it would be better if people all over the world spoke the only language, >> but is it possible? Hope it would change ( English language in Russia and >> ex-USSR countries ) but God knows when. And things would run better if >> we have office speaking English to all the world and Russian to people >> which have not learned English good enough yet. >> >> A> Here in Switzerland, not matter what, you have to speak English in order to A> deal effectively with our verious clients and admnistrate a our part of a A> network which uses English as the de-facto language. Sure, we use German, A> French and Italian daily with our customers, but on the international admin A> level, English is it. No question, no argumaents. Granted, as a lingua A> franca English is relatively young, but I prefer it over Latin and Greek. A> Who knows what will emerge as the next international language but the end A> of the next century ( I suspect it will be Chinese), but it is not important. A> English is the administrative languag of the net, just as it is for aviation. A> So be it. Most people can quickly learn enough bad English to be understood A> and to understand, and, coming from Russian, I can't say the same for that A> deeply beautiful and nuanced language. To add to this point, while Russian A> is of course easier for a Moscow-base office, for the Russians, if it is A> admistrating the CIS or some version of slavic blocks, don't you think that A> many of the other slavic nations will be offended by being forced to use A> Russian. (In my dealings with the Poles recently, although they grudgingly A> permitted me to use Russian from time to time, they were truly appreciative A> by my refusal to do so, since I had no wish to offend them. Same for the A> Ukranians.) There are many sensitivities here.... English is more neutral........ A> Lots of good reasons to keep English in place... First, I am sorry if I did not express it clear. I meant just the mere fact a Moscow office would be useful for Russian speaking people who do not know English well enough yet. It will be at least bilingual, and I never thought of Russian as a replacement for English ( at least because it must be difficult enough to learn ). Russian and think some other languages would be just extra "features" of that office while traditional English will be in use where possible. On the other hand ( no matter if we want that or not ) most of people in FSU countries know their native language and Russian, not English and they will need some time for accomodation. Why not make things easier for them? A> Aleks -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From igor at absys.tashkent.su Mon Feb 16 05:11:24 1998 From: igor at absys.tashkent.su (Igor Bronnikov) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:11:24 +0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: unsubscribe all From igor at office.lucky.net Fri Feb 13 17:08:21 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:08:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802130058.DAA04318@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 13, 98 03:58:31 am Message-ID: <199802131608.SAA00553@office.lucky.net> > >> Excerpt from RIPE-167: > >> > >> If has been suggested more than once that the coun- > >> tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from > >> Europe that needed special regional support. > > I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. > > IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating > yet another RIR. Well, I meant that the definition of "region" in RIPE-167 is _political_ rather then _geographical_. Why so? If I remember correctly, TZ difference in Moscow and Far East is 9 hours ("Moscow time is 3 p.m.,... it's midnight in Petropavlosk-Kamchatsky" (c) Moscow radio ;). So why insist on TZ difference as the argument for RIR creation? (Note, this is only one example of contradictions or, better to say, inconsistencies in RIPE-167). > I never heard anything about making Ukraine or > anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting > nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian > representatives. Ukrainian representatives (and yours truly in particular) asked the following questions and got the following answers: Q: Will the alternative service be preserved in the future? A: No, it is not feasible for RIPE. Q: Then what will be after the trial period? A: LIRs will have no choice as to from what RIR they can get service. Q: How will it be decided who is served by what RIR? A: By some kind of voting. And now look at the meeting's statement (I've already quoted appropriate part of it). Q: How could this meeting, where there are representatives from Russia and Ukraine make decisions for other countries? A: It is not democratical centralism, we are talking about - it's European democracy. If representatives from other countries did not come, it is taken as a sign that they do not care, so we'll decide for them. (I'm _not_ sure about wording - anyway we have a copy of all the discussion on an audio tape ;) > And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? > It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by > APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok > as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody > who likes to work with it is welcome. See above w.r.t. TZ differences as an example. > >> IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language > >> (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). > > I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries > I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. > I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well > I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. > I like that manner to speak for all. Where had I tried to speak "for all"? When I insisted on the existence of, say, Armenian language? Hope you are not going to deny it's existence ;) > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, it seems that the two statements underlined above are not that far from each other. > Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking > people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned ^^^^^^^^^ > to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to > allow them to use Internet? Sorry, LIR's personnel is _not_ "everybody". And why, on Earth should people, who are just _using_ the Internet contact RIR directly? > > And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who > does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots > of people who can understand documents in English but not write > something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and > for that matter other CIS countries ) How are they working with RIPE now? ;) > > I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment > I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. > > Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which > have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of > them -- why to neglect it? OK, so should this be one of the _main_ arguments for RIR creation? And again, when you are speaking about Russia - you are absolutely right, Not so for most other CIS countries, where rouble is a foreign currency. > I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting > I> some things were made quite obvious > I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test > I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. > > If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the > RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by > RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. No prob. iff the choice will be free for _every_ LIR and iff _all_ newly established LIRs will have this choice from now on. Unfortunately, this is nearly equivalent to continuing alternative service. > > I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. > I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow > I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be > I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, > I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" > I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). > I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs > I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that > I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ > I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other > I> votings, decisions and the like. > I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent > I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication > I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". > I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: > I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them > I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been > I> adopted nevertheless. You have not commented on this. Do you agree with the possibilities outlined above? > I> ... > > However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. It seemed the only reasonable way to make the community hear our voice. Otherwise it would be mere "20 for, 4 against, everything is just fine" > > Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting > resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. And later Russian Academy of Sciences pretended to be the founder of new RIR instead of RIPN. And during the meeting some Russian LIRs voted against the statement. So what? > > My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not > want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the > other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is > good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would > make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who > would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights > to choose. Please, stop thinking in "country" categories. Paraphrasing you: "LIRs in any country are independent and have all rights to choose." Now, please, reread your own words: "RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it." ^^^^^^^^^ So, how will you decide if _the country_ would like to join it? Some LIRs would, some would not. And _making_ them to follow your way just because initially 2 or three of them agreed to this is... khm... non-democratic. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 22:03:57 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:03:57 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Edgar Danielyan on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:00:23 +0400 (GMT) Message-ID: <199802132103.AAA06270@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "E" == Edgar Danielyan writes: E> To: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) E> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:00:23 +0400 (GMT) E> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net >> The discussion has dragged on far too long, and it must be about now >> that we can reach some kind of conclusions: E> And hopefully finish it! >> 1. Various people/countries/ethnic groups from the former red block >> countries have very great distrust in each other. Far not all of them, if you take a look at that matter. There still is much in common after all that. E> Yes. And there are reasons - no need to talk about them here and now, but E> there are sufficient reasons. >> Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why ? E> Confess, Moscow. E> Quocunque jeceris stabit. E> -edd -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 13 21:59:47 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:59:47 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: "aw@eunet.ch"'s message of Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:25:07 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <199802132059.XAA06219@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Alex Wilansky writes: A> To: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) A> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:25:07 +0100 (MET) A> Cc: hostmaster at taide.net, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... >> Anyone from Grand Duchy? >> A> No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not A> insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the A> internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english A> shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the A> communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in A> Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) Quite right, Alex. It is okay about Moscow, St Petersbourg and some other cities. And we are connecting other regions where it is not so. Think it would be better if people all over the world spoke the only language, but is it possible? Hope it would change ( English language in Russia and ex-USSR countries ) but God knows when. And things would run better if we have office speaking English to all the world and Russian to people which have not learned English good enough yet. A> Aleks Sergey -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From aw at eunet.ch Sat Feb 14 12:54:21 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:54:21 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802132059.XAA06219@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 13, 98 11:59:47 pm Message-ID: <199802141154.MAA19932@magnolia.eunet.ch> > Sergey A. Mukhin writes: > >> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... > >> Anyone from Grand Duchy? > >> > > A> No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not > A> insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the > A> internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english > A> shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the > A> communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in > A> Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) > > Quite right, Alex. It is okay about Moscow, St Petersbourg and some other > cities. And we are connecting other regions where it is not so. Think > it would be better if people all over the world spoke the only language, > but is it possible? Hope it would change ( English language in Russia and > ex-USSR countries ) but God knows when. And things would run better if > we have office speaking English to all the world and Russian to people > which have not learned English good enough yet. > > Here in Switzerland, not matter what, you have to speak English in order to deal effectively with our verious clients and admnistrate a our part of a network which uses English as the de-facto language. Sure, we use German, French and Italian daily with our customers, but on the international admin level, English is it. No question, no argumaents. Granted, as a lingua franca English is relatively young, but I prefer it over Latin and Greek. Who knows what will emerge as the next international language but the end of the next century ( I suspect it will be Chinese), but it is not important. English is the administrative languag of the net, just as it is for aviation. So be it. Most people can quickly learn enough bad English to be understood and to understand, and, coming from Russian, I can't say the same for that deeply beautiful and nuanced language. To add to this point, while Russian is of course easier for a Moscow-base office, for the Russians, if it is admistrating the CIS or some version of slavic blocks, don't you think that many of the other slavic nations will be offended by being forced to use Russian. (In my dealings with the Poles recently, although they grudgingly permitted me to use Russian from time to time, they were truly appreciative by my refusal to do so, since I had no wish to offend them. Same for the Ukranians.) There are many sensitivities here.... English is more neutral........ Lots of good reasons to keep English in place... Aleks From prc at co.ip.pt Sat Feb 14 16:39:40 1998 From: prc at co.ip.pt (Pedro Ramalho Carlos) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:39:40 +0000 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: References: <199802112325.CAA04657@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980214153940.00f2b990@jaguar.ip.pt> Dear All, Having lurked into this long and IMHO very indecisive discussing, please bear with someone that is on the geographical opposite side of the E in RIPE (Portugal). I tend to agree that the main justification, both in RIPE167 and the discussion in this list, for creating a new RIR, is based on the following main points: a) There are language problems communicating with the existing RIR (RIPE); b) There are time zone differences that make communication difficult; c) There are currency/payment difficulties for local ISPs; d) There are travel difficulties to attend RIPE meetings; Since we live in a country where: 1. There are a lot less English teachers per capita than in the considered region for the new RIR; 2. TZ difference has never been an issue communicating over the Internet even when we had to resort to IANA in California (8 hour TZ difference) a long time ago, and still today for other issues; 3. Burocracy and high bank services costs are high; 4. Travelling to central Europe is both very expensive and time inefficient; 5. Nevertheless, we consider to be much better off, in regard to all these issues, than many other countries also served by RIPE, in other large geographical areas and continents (Africa is paradigmatic). I tend to believe that there is no solid justification for a 1st tier RIR for the aforementioned region: 1. If a prospective RIR client, which from now on I'll generalize as being a LIR-ISP, in that geographical area has a problem with the Internet "lingua franca", English, needed for a relatively easy and well "procedured" dialog with the RIR, then we believe that this ISP is better off not being a LIR-ISP, and get their "IR service" from their upstream transit provider. Unrelated to this issue, I'm inclined to propose that it should be a MANDATORY requirement for any LIR-ISP to have 24 hour English speaking staff available, since in addition to IR issues, there are still so many operational issues that can affect everyone, that having "language problems" can be a potential nightmare when some English-impaired ISP starts BGP announcing your address space over some major backbone, or any similarly disrupting and urgent to resolve issues. 2. TZ difference is a non-issue IMHO. If it is such an important problem maybe the eastern/Asia part of Russia and other FSU countries should get their service from APNIC. And arguments like "we provide service from Moscow to Vladivostok" sound bogus, since I tend to believe that a large ISP that spans Europe and Asia will not have two or more internal departments dealing with "IR" issues. It will have one, and I guess that if it's based in western Russia it will prefer RIPE and if it's based in Eastern Siberia it will prefer APNIC (but if they have two, perhaps they should concentrate their efforts combining those depts, instead of trying to creating one RIR for each department, or turning one the departments into a RIR...) (As a side note, we may have to assign IP addresses to clients in Macao, that is 10 TZ away from Lisbon, or Timor (12 hours) for that matter :-)) 3. Payment difficulties seems like another somewhat bogus, if understandable issue. I believe that today there are very few countries where it is really difficult to make foreign currency payments. And IMHO, the countries in the FSU are not worse of, on the contrary, than most African and a least one big island in the Caribbean. Of course, small "Mom-and-Po shops" will have more difficulty to get this handled, but they will also have a lot more difficulty dealing with tons of other issues than larger companies. So it's a fact of life, and unless one wants a RIR for every "currency zone" in the world, we should all be able to live with it. If there are countries where, because of the local political regime, there is no way to make the RIPE payment, I'm sure the RIPE community will find a imaginative way of getting them service. 4. Travel difficulties are yet another very weak argument in the context of the RIR and Internet in general. The number and the necessity to attend meetings physically is IMHO quite low. a) we have alternative ways of communicating our points of view, sometimes in a more focused way through email, than in live meetings (this email, is of course a notable exception); b) we can raise issues that are relevant to a number of LIRs and have one representative flown in for a live meeting. I'm afraid that again this is a fact of life: dutch ISPs will always have an advantage in this regard while the RIPE-NCC is based in Amsterdam. In fact Amsterdam ISPs are better off than "some little town in the north of Holland" ISPs. In addition I'm afraid that RIPE-NCC and its coordinator(s) have created a trust relationship with LIR's that makes LIRs very comfortable with the way things are handled. All in all I believe that with such a weak justification, creating a precedent would make room for a lot more RIR's: the Iberian RIR, The British Isles RIR, the Scandinavian RIR, The Basque RIR, the Atlantic Islands RIR, the Magreb RIR, the Central African RIR, the Southern African RIR, etc. (To make this even clearer, if RIPN is created, I believe that we will contact our spanish friends and propose an Iberian RIR to be based in Lisbon, because the weather here much better than in Amsterdam, and that is defintely a better justification than any of the aforementioned ones:). Of course, whether we should have competing RIRs for the same region is quite a different issue. However for the time being the "de-facto" monopoly for IR services is well supported by all LIRs I guess, mainly because the quality of RIPE-NCC services probably is still a model for most LIR-ISP even those in competitive environments :-). Just my long 2 cEU --- pedro ramalho carlos Pedro.Carlos at co.ip.pt IP SA tel: +351-1-3166724 Av. Duque de Avila, 23 fax: +351-1-3166701 1000 LISBOA - PORTUGAL PGP Key fingerprint = B7 45 B2 F9 F3 1F 67 19 1F 24 76 67 8D F6 2C B2 From violet at rosnet.net Sun Feb 15 22:01:05 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:01:05 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: "aw@eunet.ch"'s message of Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:54:21 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <199802152101.AAA09908@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Alex Wilansky writes: A> To: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) A> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:54:21 +0100 (MET) A> Cc: edd at aic.net, hostmaster at taide.net, ncc at ripe.net, lir-wg at ripe.net, aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) >> Sergey A. Mukhin writes: >> >> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... >> >> Anyone from Grand Duchy? >> >> >> A> No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not A> insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the A> internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english A> shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the A> communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in A> Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) >> >> Quite right, Alex. It is okay about Moscow, St Petersbourg and some other >> cities. And we are connecting other regions where it is not so. Think >> it would be better if people all over the world spoke the only language, >> but is it possible? Hope it would change ( English language in Russia and >> ex-USSR countries ) but God knows when. And things would run better if >> we have office speaking English to all the world and Russian to people >> which have not learned English good enough yet. >> >> A> Here in Switzerland, not matter what, you have to speak English in order to A> deal effectively with our verious clients and admnistrate a our part of a A> network which uses English as the de-facto language. Sure, we use German, A> French and Italian daily with our customers, but on the international admin A> level, English is it. No question, no argumaents. Granted, as a lingua A> franca English is relatively young, but I prefer it over Latin and Greek. A> Who knows what will emerge as the next international language but the end A> of the next century ( I suspect it will be Chinese), but it is not important. A> English is the administrative languag of the net, just as it is for aviation. A> So be it. Most people can quickly learn enough bad English to be understood A> and to understand, and, coming from Russian, I can't say the same for that A> deeply beautiful and nuanced language. To add to this point, while Russian A> is of course easier for a Moscow-base office, for the Russians, if it is A> admistrating the CIS or some version of slavic blocks, don't you think that A> many of the other slavic nations will be offended by being forced to use A> Russian. (In my dealings with the Poles recently, although they grudgingly A> permitted me to use Russian from time to time, they were truly appreciative A> by my refusal to do so, since I had no wish to offend them. Same for the A> Ukranians.) There are many sensitivities here.... English is more neutral........ A> Lots of good reasons to keep English in place... First, I am sorry if I did not express it clear. I meant just the mere fact a Moscow office would be useful for Russian speaking people who do not know English well enough yet. It will be at least bilingual, and I never thought of Russian as a replacement for English ( at least because it must be difficult enough to learn ). Russian and think some other languages would be just extra "features" of that office while traditional English will be in use where possible. On the other hand ( no matter if we want that or not ) most of people in FSU countries know their native language and Russian, not English and they will need some time for accomodation. Why not make things easier for them? A> Aleks -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From goo at botik.lucky.net Mon Feb 16 16:39:39 1998 From: goo at botik.lucky.net (Sergey Gulchuck) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:39:39 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802130058.DAA04318@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 13, 98 03:58:31 am Message-ID: <199802161539.RAA20969@botik.lucky.net> > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? We must look into future, not past. Regards, Sergey Gulchuck, ISP LuckyNet Kyiv, Ukraine From goo at botik.lucky.net Mon Feb 16 16:39:39 1998 From: goo at botik.lucky.net (Sergey Gulchuck) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:39:39 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802130058.DAA04318@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 13, 98 03:58:31 am Message-ID: <199802161539.RAA20969@botik.lucky.net> > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? We must look into future, not past. Regards, Sergey Gulchuck, ISP LuckyNet Kyiv, Ukraine From aw at eunet.ch Tue Feb 17 14:05:53 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:05:53 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802161539.RAA20969@botik.lucky.net> from "Sergey Gulchuck" at Feb 16, 98 05:39:39 pm Message-ID: <199802171305.OAA14413@magnolia.eunet.ch> Sergey Gulchuck, wrote:> > > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period > there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. > Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? > We must look into future, not past. > > > As I said before, basedon my own experiance, speaking Russian is contentious. Best to use English and be done with it. Use Russian for the Russian speakers if need be, and English for everyone else. DON'T use Russian as default for slavs, it's offensive to some.... Aleks From violet at rosnet.net Tue Feb 17 14:53:04 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:53:04 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Sergey Gulchuck on Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:39:39 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802171353.QAA15165@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "S" == Sergey Gulchuck writes: S> To: lir-wg at ripe.net S> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:39:39 +0200 (EET) >> Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so >> many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered by the fact somebody else wants ? S> Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period S> there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. S> Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? S> We must look into future, not past. Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can change history of the past we just have to take into consideration the facts no matter if we like them or not. S> Regards, S> Sergey Gulchuck, S> ISP LuckyNet S> Kyiv, Ukraine -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From aw at eunet.ch Tue Feb 17 14:05:53 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:05:53 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802161539.RAA20969@botik.lucky.net> from "Sergey Gulchuck" at Feb 16, 98 05:39:39 pm Message-ID: <199802171305.OAA14413@magnolia.eunet.ch> Sergey Gulchuck, wrote:> > > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period > there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. > Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? > We must look into future, not past. > > > As I said before, basedon my own experiance, speaking Russian is contentious. Best to use English and be done with it. Use Russian for the Russian speakers if need be, and English for everyone else. DON'T use Russian as default for slavs, it's offensive to some.... Aleks From violet at rosnet.net Tue Feb 17 14:53:04 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:53:04 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Sergey Gulchuck on Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:39:39 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802171353.QAA15165@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "S" == Sergey Gulchuck writes: S> To: lir-wg at ripe.net S> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:39:39 +0200 (EET) >> Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so >> many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered by the fact somebody else wants ? S> Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period S> there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. S> Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? S> We must look into future, not past. Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can change history of the past we just have to take into consideration the facts no matter if we like them or not. S> Regards, S> Sergey Gulchuck, S> ISP LuckyNet S> Kyiv, Ukraine -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From aw at eunet.ch Tue Feb 17 17:40:40 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:40:40 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171353.QAA15165@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 17, 98 04:53:04 pm Message-ID: <199802171640.RAA19060@magnolia.eunet.ch> > > > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > > Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > > I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > by the fact somebody else wants ? Uh, guys, this is not the time or place to bring up old national bugaboos.... We're discussing a better way to serve the east, not who did or does what.... Aleks From plat at ripn.net Tue Feb 17 18:05:58 1998 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:05:58 +0300 (MSK/MSD) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802161539.RAA20969@botik.lucky.net> from "Sergey Gulchuck" at "Feb 16, 98 05:39:39 pm" Message-ID: <199802171705.UAA26398@argo.ripn.net> According to Sergey Gulchuck: > > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. ^^^^^^^^^^ This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people from the list? The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? Regards, Alexei Platonov > Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period > there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. > Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? > We must look into future, not past. > > > Regards, > Sergey Gulchuck, > ISP LuckyNet > Kyiv, Ukraine > > > From zsako at banknet.net Tue Feb 17 17:40:39 1998 From: zsako at banknet.net (Janos Zsako) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 17:40:39 +0100 Subject: inetnum aggregation Message-ID: <9802171640.AA29776@banknet.banknet.net> Dear all, I happened to see a strange assignment made by a LIR to a customer. The strange thing about this was that it was made on the same day (by the same person), however contained 15 inetnums of a /24 each, although it could have been assigned as two inetnums only (two ranges of addresses). Although I feel it is quite clear from ripe-159 that each inetnum object should contain a *range* of addresses (and one should try to register only one inetnum for a request - which is BTW not always possible - but all examples are given in this sense), it would be good to state somewhere that aggregation _is_a_goal_ in case of the inetnum objects too. I came to this conclusion (that it is worth mentioning this) after the respective registrar, after I mentioned this problem to them, asked me whether it makes any difference if they aggregate or not... :( Regards, Janos From aw at eunet.ch Tue Feb 17 21:29:01 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:29:01 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171705.UAA26398@argo.ripn.net> from "Alexei Platonov" at Feb 17, 98 08:05:58 pm Message-ID: <199802172029.VAA19908@magnolia.eunet.ch> > > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? > erm, technicaly, it's Muscovites. Only the Americans have used any other spelling. > May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people > from the list? The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision > and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? Yes, please; Let's try and focus on the issue at hand... aleks From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 11:31:21 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171353.QAA15165@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > > Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate here? > I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable question here while asking what's wrong with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" ("this" means the current state of things). Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot live being served by RIPE directly any more; you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. Would you please mind explaining the reasons? Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice of where to be served from those countries. It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... My conclusion: * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where * is (so hyped) community, anyway? If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support from the *representative* community, -- then who needs all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. > Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. This statement of yours contradicts directly with the approach of ripe-167 document. > But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and union are different things, aren't they? > If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > by the fact somebody else wants ? Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still > can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can > change history of the past we just have to take into consideration > the facts no matter if we like them or not. The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... if there will be any. But not now, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From wal at rtsnet.ru Wed Feb 18 10:51:55 1998 From: wal at rtsnet.ru (Vladimir Lebedev) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:51:55 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting References: <199802171705.UAA26398@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <34EAAF3B.C3E69F49@rtsnet.ru> Alexei Platonov wrote: > According to Sergey Gulchuck: > > > > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > > > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. > > > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? > > May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people > from the list? The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision > and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? Looking at the large number of replies on the [ripe-167] topic I think that number of people who interested in this discussion is not just "few". Moreover, in this discussion participating peolple not only from CIS countries, but all over the Europe. I'm looking at the discussion and it reminds me a situation in FidoNet at the early 90th. There was a try to separate CIS countries netwokrs from Europe! Our "independent" Moscow's guys wanted to create Zone 7 for CIS, independend from Zone 2 (Europe) with own Zone Coordinator and all other attributes of power, for example rights to assign Fido network numbers for geographical regions. Formal reasons was absolutely the same: language issues, time zone difference etc., etc. Thanks God, that "coup" was unseccussful. Now the history repeating, but at this time with Internet. I hope the finish of the story will be the same. I want to make clear for the audience the real reason of this "independance movement": MONOPOLIZATION OF IP NETWORK ADDRESSES ASSIGNMENT IN RUSSIA AND OTHER CIS COUNTRIES BY ROSNIIROS (RIPN). RIPN had already monopolized the domain name delegation under ".ru", and the only thing this they doesn't hove at this time is control under the network addresses. If they receive this control, can you imagine the amount of money that will be "informally" squezeed from russian LIR's for the good relationship from the RIPN side? I can. Vladimir. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 451 bytes Desc: Card for Vladimir Lebedev URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 2664 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 11:45:35 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:45:35 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171705.UAA26398@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: Dear Alexei, On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? :) > May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people > from the list? Do you think that things will go better if you will keep them in silence and darkness? > The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision > and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? Would you mind placing some creative comments here, please? (Shutting up those who do not agree is a Bad Thing (tm) -- BTW). How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative authorship? > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From plat at ripn.net Wed Feb 18 13:26:01 1998 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:26:01 +0300 (MSK/MSD) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at "Feb 18, 98 12:45:35 pm" Message-ID: <199802181226.PAA07945@argo.ripn.net> According to Andrew Stesin: > > Dear Alexei, > > On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? > > :) > > > May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people > > from the list? > > Do you think that things will go better if you will keep > them in silence and darkness? I do not think so. I want to see more constructive discussion. > > > The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision > > and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? > > Would you mind placing some creative comments here, please? > (Shutting up those who do not agree is a Bad Thing (tm) -- BTW). > > How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, > reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative > authorship? Yes, I like it. I want only to mention that this is just what we decided in Moscow (only ripe-167+ was not mentioned): to establish RIPE office and continue to work on documents on RIR within working group which is open to all interested parties. By the way, the working group has already prepared some documents and is ready to submit them for starting discussion. The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including the RIPE NCC office - otherwise nothing will be done. The discussion that we participate in can last till infinity. And you should take into consideration that the office works _de facto_ the last 1,5 years, you know about it. I have to do something with the community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, either to stop it immediately (quality of service is falling due to unregulated scheme, both financial and organizational) or to move forward. Regards, Alexei Platonov From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 13:59:12 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:59:12 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181226.PAA07945@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, > > reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative > > authorship? > > Yes, I like it. I want only to mention that this is just what we > decided in Moscow (only ripe-167+ was not mentioned): to establish ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It was (by me at least) though went unnoticed by the majority. > RIPE office and continue to work on documents on RIR within working > group which is open to all interested parties. By the way, the > working group has already prepared some documents and is ready > to submit them for starting discussion. > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including ^^^^ Would you please mind clarifying in details: who "you" (see "we" above) are? > the RIPE NCC office - otherwise nothing will be done. The discussion > that we participate in can last till infinity. Yes, "infinity" -- as long as you doesn't provide us with a) clear written definition of the planned actions and the scope of the interested community (that's what my speech on ripe-167+ is about); b) solid clarification for the consensus of community mentioned in "a)". > And you should take into consideration that the office works _de facto_ > the last 1,5 years, "RosNIIROS" != "RIPE office" so far. RIPE NCC and RosNIIROS are different organisations. RosNIIROS may (to some extend) pretend on the role of Russian National registry, that's another story. > you know about it. No I don't know *anything* "just because" or "by default". > I have to do something with the > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, Why do you think you *have to* do something? What's wrong with current state of affairs? Why something should be changed? Why attempts to expand the scope of RosNIIROS IR to adjucent countries? this last question is the most interesting and important for me. > either to stop it immediately (quality of service is falling due > to unregulated scheme, both financial and organizational) Ok, am I understabding correctly, that without getting a "RIPE NCC" label on the frontdoor RosNIIROS can't increase the quality of service it provides? and this is the one and only real problem? Why then? And even if "yes" and solid arguments are present (which ones?) -- what is ripe-167 all about then? > or to move forward. > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From aw at eunet.ch Tue Feb 17 17:40:40 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:40:40 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171353.QAA15165@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 17, 98 04:53:04 pm Message-ID: <199802171640.RAA19060@magnolia.eunet.ch> > > > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > > Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > > I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > by the fact somebody else wants ? Uh, guys, this is not the time or place to bring up old national bugaboos.... We're discussing a better way to serve the east, not who did or does what.... Aleks From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 11:31:21 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171353.QAA15165@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > > Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate here? > I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable question here while asking what's wrong with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" ("this" means the current state of things). Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot live being served by RIPE directly any more; you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. Would you please mind explaining the reasons? Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice of where to be served from those countries. It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... My conclusion: * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where * is (so hyped) community, anyway? If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support from the *representative* community, -- then who needs all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. > Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. This statement of yours contradicts directly with the approach of ripe-167 document. > But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and union are different things, aren't they? > If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > by the fact somebody else wants ? Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still > can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can > change history of the past we just have to take into consideration > the facts no matter if we like them or not. The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... if there will be any. But not now, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From aw at eunet.ch Tue Feb 17 21:29:01 1998 From: aw at eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:29:01 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171705.UAA26398@argo.ripn.net> from "Alexei Platonov" at Feb 17, 98 08:05:58 pm Message-ID: <199802172029.VAA19908@magnolia.eunet.ch> > > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? > erm, technicaly, it's Muscovites. Only the Americans have used any other spelling. > May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people > from the list? The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision > and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? Yes, please; Let's try and focus on the issue at hand... aleks From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 11:45:35 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:45:35 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802171705.UAA26398@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: Dear Alexei, On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? :) > May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people > from the list? Do you think that things will go better if you will keep them in silence and darkness? > The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision > and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? Would you mind placing some creative comments here, please? (Shutting up those who do not agree is a Bad Thing (tm) -- BTW). How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative authorship? > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From wal at rtsnet.ru Wed Feb 18 10:51:55 1998 From: wal at rtsnet.ru (Vladimir Lebedev) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:51:55 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting References: <199802171705.UAA26398@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <34EAAF3B.C3E69F49@rtsnet.ru> Alexei Platonov wrote: > According to Sergey Gulchuck: > > > > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > > > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. > > > > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? > > May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people > from the list? The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision > and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? Looking at the large number of replies on the [ripe-167] topic I think that number of people who interested in this discussion is not just "few". Moreover, in this discussion participating peolple not only from CIS countries, but all over the Europe. I'm looking at the discussion and it reminds me a situation in FidoNet at the early 90th. There was a try to separate CIS countries netwokrs from Europe! Our "independent" Moscow's guys wanted to create Zone 7 for CIS, independend from Zone 2 (Europe) with own Zone Coordinator and all other attributes of power, for example rights to assign Fido network numbers for geographical regions. Formal reasons was absolutely the same: language issues, time zone difference etc., etc. Thanks God, that "coup" was unseccussful. Now the history repeating, but at this time with Internet. I hope the finish of the story will be the same. I want to make clear for the audience the real reason of this "independance movement": MONOPOLIZATION OF IP NETWORK ADDRESSES ASSIGNMENT IN RUSSIA AND OTHER CIS COUNTRIES BY ROSNIIROS (RIPN). RIPN had already monopolized the domain name delegation under ".ru", and the only thing this they doesn't hove at this time is control under the network addresses. If they receive this control, can you imagine the amount of money that will be "informally" squezeed from russian LIR's for the good relationship from the RIPN side? I can. Vladimir. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 451 bytes Desc: Card for Vladimir Lebedev URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 2664 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 13:59:12 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:59:12 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181226.PAA07945@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, > > reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative > > authorship? > > Yes, I like it. I want only to mention that this is just what we > decided in Moscow (only ripe-167+ was not mentioned): to establish ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It was (by me at least) though went unnoticed by the majority. > RIPE office and continue to work on documents on RIR within working > group which is open to all interested parties. By the way, the > working group has already prepared some documents and is ready > to submit them for starting discussion. > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including ^^^^ Would you please mind clarifying in details: who "you" (see "we" above) are? > the RIPE NCC office - otherwise nothing will be done. The discussion > that we participate in can last till infinity. Yes, "infinity" -- as long as you doesn't provide us with a) clear written definition of the planned actions and the scope of the interested community (that's what my speech on ripe-167+ is about); b) solid clarification for the consensus of community mentioned in "a)". > And you should take into consideration that the office works _de facto_ > the last 1,5 years, "RosNIIROS" != "RIPE office" so far. RIPE NCC and RosNIIROS are different organisations. RosNIIROS may (to some extend) pretend on the role of Russian National registry, that's another story. > you know about it. No I don't know *anything* "just because" or "by default". > I have to do something with the > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, Why do you think you *have to* do something? What's wrong with current state of affairs? Why something should be changed? Why attempts to expand the scope of RosNIIROS IR to adjucent countries? this last question is the most interesting and important for me. > either to stop it immediately (quality of service is falling due > to unregulated scheme, both financial and organizational) Ok, am I understabding correctly, that without getting a "RIPE NCC" label on the frontdoor RosNIIROS can't increase the quality of service it provides? and this is the one and only real problem? Why then? And even if "yes" and solid arguments are present (which ones?) -- what is ripe-167 all about then? > or to move forward. > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From dburk at comstar.ru Wed Feb 18 15:34:53 1998 From: dburk at comstar.ru (Dmitri Bourkov) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:34:53 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Stesin To: Sergey A. Mukhin Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net Date: 18 tebp`k 1998 c. 17:03 Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > Andrei, I don't like to continue discussion in such form. I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, when you substituted arguments and problems. For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. Be honest and strong or I mistakened and I never heard such words from you and your friends. In such case, sorry guys... Regards, Dmitri From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Feb 18 15:51:38 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:51:38 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181226.PAA07945@argo.ripn.net> from "Alexei Platonov" at Feb 18, 98 03:26:01 pm Message-ID: <199802181451.QAA23714@office.lucky.net> > > Do you think that things will go better if you will keep > > them in silence and darkness? > > I do not think so. I want to see more constructive discussion. Ok. What do you want to discuss then? It had been shown clearly enough during the ongoing discussion that argumentation in RIPE-167 is weak enough even for Russia and merely inappropriate for CIS. If you want to use constructive approach then IMHO it could be done like this: 1. The process of creating the new RIR should be suspended since it's not obvious what will be created and why. 2. Another document should be issued with much more solid motivation (if you have it) and the document should clearly state how the intended process of transition would work, what region will be served, etc. 3. The new document should be discussed then. If all you've said during this discussion w.r.t. your intentions holds true, then you should clearly see this approach as advantegeous. > > How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, > > reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative > > authorship? > > Yes, I like it. I want only to mention that this is just what we > decided in Moscow (only ripe-167+ was not mentioned): to establish > RIPE office and continue to work on documents on RIR within working Ughh... First we create some formal organization and then let it work out, what it should do, what territory it serves,... Correct? A very nice thing and waaay professional... Oh, by the way, regarding Moscow meeting. The document adopted there indicates the whole FSU territory as the region served by RIR. It disregards what you've called the "consolidated opinion" of Ukrainian ISPs. Will your workgroup continue to disregard other's opinions? Then it's official status may result in many problems. > group which is open to all interested parties. By the way, the > working group has already prepared some documents and is ready > to submit them for starting discussion. > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including > the RIPE NCC office - otherwise nothing will be done. The discussion > that we participate in can last till infinity. The discussion surely _will_ continue to infinity if you do not have well-motivated, well-argumented proposals with clearly stated purpose and with support from the majority of LIRs situated in every country/territory you want to serve. If you cannot get support - do not include the territory. If your motivation is not accepted by the community you want to serve - you have wrong motivation. Would you like to start _practical_ work without clear understanding of the tasks you want to carry out, without clear understanding of whom do you serve and what are advantages of being served by you? If so, then the professional level of the new RIR (or RIPE NCC Office in Moscow for that matter) would seem to be... low. > And you should take into consideration that the office works _de facto_ > the last 1,5 years, you know about it. I have to do something with the Then what is wrong with it working de facto another half a year without the official status? And to finally make all the others understand your position, goals and intentions, to formalize the transition process and procedures, to ... Well, you probably got the idea. > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, either to stop it > immediately (quality of service is falling due to unregulated scheme, > both financial and organizational) or to move forward. So, in a nutshell, you want to say the following: "I am serving some 50 LIRs now for free. I want to get money for my service. Currently my service is bad but as you pay me money, it will become more appropriate. Take my word for it. Now, since I want to establish the RIR, I need to indicate the region. I'm serving several LIRs from abroad Russia, so let the region be FSU. And no, I do not have good arguments for why the RIR should be created except we need money badly to increase the level of service. But see guys - I'm honest! Take my vows for it!" Right? > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > > > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 16:11:34 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:11:34 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> Message-ID: Hi Dmitry, On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Dmitri Bourkov wrote: > > It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > > to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > > it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > > > > Andrei, > I don't like to continue discussion in such form. > I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your > goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. Your words above are neither true nor acceptable as argumentation "pro" "RIR-in-Moscow" project. > I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, > when you substituted arguments and problems. > > For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev Huh? Would you mind reminding me about THIS proposal, please? What did I answer -- do you remember? I do. I said that the very first step *must* be a creation of ISP assosiation in Ukraine; everything else will be *after* this, 'cause how can you establish anything serious if you don't have a consensus within the representative community behind of it? That were you who decided to go another way in Russia -- no representative community, no agreement, but "forward! let's do it quickly, or it will be too late!" It might be a valid approach, though, by I don't agree with it so far -- you didn't convince me. > because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet > goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. Much simplier. We are happy with RIPE with regard to IP address allocation and we don't feel that any more complexity is needed for us in forseeable future. We are satisfied with the service. Everything is fine! But someone all of a sudden is pulling us (and our contributions, BTW) towards Moscow; what for? As for our Ukrainian goverment. Don't you think that *any* business unit, be it ISP or whatever, which operates on the territory of *any* state, MUST confirm with local laws whatever they are? or? shouldn't the unit be shut down otherwise? Nobody here wants to be shut down. That's the only weak issue in Ukraine for now which I'm aware of -- our local authorities just didn't invent the law for Internet here so far, but are moving towards it's creation. And we (ISP) are taking part in this process; so we are busy dealing with local issues, busy enough here even without any extra political "innovations" brought to us from abroad (either from Russian goverment of whomever else). Technology and business are enough work on their own. TLD is all another story, but it's out of topic for this discussion. > Be honest and strong > or I mistakened and I never heard such words from > you and your friends. > > In such case, sorry guys... > Don't mention. Whatever you are saying isn't in any way a clarification for current ripe-167 approach, do you agree? > > Regards, > Dmitri > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From violet at rosnet.net Wed Feb 18 16:25:50 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:25:50 +0300 Subject: PLEASE QUOTE CORRECT!!!! Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> (dburk@comstar.ru) Message-ID: <199802181525.SAA18436@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "D" == Dmitri Bourkov writes: D> To: D> Cc: D> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:34:53 +0300 D> -----Original Message----- D> From: Andrew Stesin D> To: Sergey A. Mukhin D> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net D> Date: 18 tebp`k 1998 c. 17:03 D> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> >> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even >> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever >> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I HAD NEVER WRITTEN THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH! PLEASE QUOTE CORRECT WAY!!! Sergey D> Andrei, D> I don't like to continue discussion in such form. D> I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your D> goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. D> I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, D> when you substituted arguments and problems. D> For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev D> because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet D> goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. D> Be honest and strong D> or D> I mistakened and I never heard such words from D> you and your friends. D> In such case, sorry guys... D> Regards, D> Dmitri -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From haug at seicom.net Wed Feb 18 16:33:27 1998 From: haug at seicom.net (Winfried Haug) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:33:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <009C1B33.B5D88AEC.7@cc.univie.ac.at> from "Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet" at "Feb 12, 98 11:42:07 am" Message-ID: <199802181533.QAA01585@hq.seicom.net> Hello... first of all, i want to mention, that we are not involved in any internet business in russia. We dont know how assigns domains, who is responsible for what etc.. But all statements on this list seem to me like a political problem, but because all know that this isnt a good reason to split RIPE, some are trying to find other arguments... We (de.seicom) dont consider language problems or time-zones justify to establish a new RIPE If we start this, some other countries will apply for a (X)RIPE with the same reason... BTW: Germany is raising and it would be much more easier to talk with a LIR in Germany in german language.. Frankfurt would be real central for germany, we have a good mc Donalds in the train station... I hope this are good reasons for establishing GRIPE in Germany (german Ripe). *sigh* ok nice joke... But please find real and good reasons why a new RIPE should be established in Moscow or somewhere else... I am boring to see all this boring mailings on this list. And if the russian LIR are not able to communicate in english language with the RIPE NCC in Amsterdam, and there are so much LIR from Russia, a hostmaster with the ability to speak russian should work in Amsterdam..:-) But i expect, that a fundamental knowledge of the english language is essential for internet business, whether you are from germany, france, spain, russia or from any other country... Winni --- Winfried Haug | SEICOM.DE & SCHWABEN.DE | Tel. +49 7121 9770- 0 Laiblinsplatz 12 | Internet+ISDN access & consulting | Fax. +49 7121 9770-19 72793 Pfullingen | Access in STGT + RT + TUE + BB + LB | Rack +49 7127 989-X haug at schwaben.net| 150*ISDN (64kb/X.75) / 100 * K56flex | Rack +49 711 9675-X haug at seicom.net |SAP-OSS * FTP * TELNET * NETNEWS * IRC | Rack +49 7121 709-X * 10 MBit DE-CIX * 2 MBit INXS * 3 MBit ecrc/ebone * 2 Mbit Belwue * 2 Mbit WIN From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 16:29:08 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:29:08 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181451.QAA23714@office.lucky.net> Message-ID: Hello all, On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Igor Romanenko wrote: [...] > 1. The process of creating the new RIR should be suspended since it's not > obvious what will be created and why. > 2. Another document should be issued with much more solid motivation > (if you have it) and the document should clearly state how the intended > process of transition would work, what region will be served, etc. > 3. The new document should be discussed then. That's exactly what I was proposing. Thanks to you Igor for better formal explanation. > If all you've said during this discussion w.r.t. your intentions holds true, > then you should clearly see this approach as advantegeous. Yes, this approach *is* advantageous! I beleive that the very best intentions were the only background of ripe-167; but this fact remained unclear and unexplained in details. The latter approach will allow to make everything clear, explained and obvious -- thus better probability of painless adoption of the proposal by the community. [...] > The discussion surely _will_ continue to infinity if you do not have > well-motivated, well-argumented proposals with clearly stated purpose > and with support from the majority of LIRs situated in every country/territory > you want to serve. If you cannot get support - do not include the territory. > If your motivation is not accepted by the community you want to serve - > you have wrong motivation. Yes, that's it. It would be nice to hear comments on this last paragraph of Igor's notes from other readers of the list -- I think either Igor's approach is correct here, or I have a fundamentally wrong understanding of the decision process in RIPE. Thanks in advanse. > Would you like to start _practical_ work > without clear understanding of the tasks you want to carry out, > without clear understanding of whom do you serve and what are advantages > of being served by you? If so, then the professional level of the new > RIR (or RIPE NCC Office in Moscow for that matter) would seem to be... low. [... a question to Alexei Platonov: ...] > So, in a nutshell, you want to say the following: > "I am serving some 50 LIRs now for free. I want to get money for my service. > Currently my service is bad but as you pay me money, it will become > more appropriate. Take my word for it. Now, since I want to establish > the RIR, I need to indicate the region. I'm serving several LIRs from abroad > Russia, so let the region be FSU. And no, I do not have good arguments for > why the RIR should be created except we need money badly to increase the > level of service. But see guys - I'm honest! Take my vows for it!" > > Right? It looks like this is pretty close to truth... comments? Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From plat at ripn.net Wed Feb 18 17:20:56 1998 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:20:56 +0300 (MSK/MSD) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at "Feb 18, 98 02:59:12 pm" Message-ID: <199802181620.TAA12610@argo.ripn.net> Andrew, sorry, but I want to make only two remarks. It seems to me, that it would be better for me to stop participating in this discussion as far as: I'm an advocate of goverment regulation; I want to form "Russian Union" in Internet etc. etc. I hope my colleagues will continue. Thus: 1) There do exists some part of RIPE community (ISPs from Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine - about 45) that is served by RosNIIROS. Let's fix that it's not interesting for me _why_ do they like such a scheme. I'm interested now only to increase the quality of service for them. Just now I cannot do it because I'd be forced to rise tariffs to have some more staff, equipment, etc. - now I just "channelize" money to RIPE NCC. The problem can be solved within existing RIPE NCC tariffs only under some status, and RIPE office is quite good. 2) The problem of RIR is much more complicated and needs further discussion. As far as you speak about ripe-167+ document, I understand that you are not rejecting this project at all. I hope you are informed that working group on this problem already exists and prepares preliminary documents (and you are welcome of course, as well as any other person interested in the problem under consideration). By the way, I'm not the member of this WG, I'm only the consultant. Some document (say, ripe-167+) will be the result of this work. As you can notice, these items follow two stages described in ripe-167. I still think that this document is reasonable as far as it reflects reality, though the argumentation is not fully adequate. It seems to me, that the above text doesn't contrdict your position or I don't understand anything. Regards, Alexei Platonov According to Andrew Stesin: > On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > > > How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, > > > reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative > > > authorship? > > > > Yes, I like it. I want only to mention that this is just what we > > decided in Moscow (only ripe-167+ was not mentioned): to establish > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > It was (by me at least) though went unnoticed by the majority. > > > RIPE office and continue to work on documents on RIR within working > > group which is open to all interested parties. By the way, the > > working group has already prepared some documents and is ready > > to submit them for starting discussion. > > > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including > ^^^^ > Would you please mind clarifying in details: who "you" (see "we" above) > are? > > > the RIPE NCC office - otherwise nothing will be done. The discussion > > that we participate in can last till infinity. > > Yes, "infinity" -- as long as you doesn't provide us with > > a) clear written definition of the planned actions and the scope of > the interested community (that's what my speech on > ripe-167+ is about); > b) solid clarification for the consensus of community mentioned in > "a)". > > > And you should take into consideration that the office works _de facto_ > > the last 1,5 years, > > "RosNIIROS" != "RIPE office" so far. RIPE NCC and RosNIIROS > are different organisations. RosNIIROS may (to some extend) > pretend on the role of Russian National registry, that's > another story. > > > you know about it. > > No I don't know *anything* "just because" or "by default". > > > I have to do something with the > > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, > > Why do you think you *have to* do something? What's wrong > with current state of affairs? Why something should be > changed? Why attempts to expand the scope of RosNIIROS IR > to adjucent countries? this last question is the most > interesting and important for me. > > > either to stop it immediately (quality of service is falling due > > to unregulated scheme, both financial and organizational) > > Ok, am I understabding correctly, that without getting > a "RIPE NCC" label on the frontdoor RosNIIROS can't increase > the quality of service it provides? and this is the one and > only real problem? > > Why then? > > And even if "yes" and solid arguments are present (which > ones?) -- what is ripe-167 all about then? > > > or to move forward. > > > > Regards, > > Alexei Platonov > > > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Feb 18 17:29:14 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:29:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> from "Dmitri Bourkov" at Feb 18, 98 05:34:53 pm Message-ID: <199802181629.SAA24064@office.lucky.net> > Andrei, > I don't like to continue discussion in such form. > I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your > goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. Dima, you continue to insist on this reason. I'll not try to persuade you (for the third time in a raw) that you are wrong. Instead I'll ask you: well, imagine you are right. What then? How will this influence the new RIR creation except adding reasons against it? > > I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, > when you substituted arguments and problems. > > For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev The correct spelling is Kyiv, clumsy as it is ;) And I've not heard someone _seriously_ proposing this. I mean: where are you going to recruit the staff, what about the apartments, etc. Well, I hope that UA.LUCKYNET will be able to resolve these problems if it comes to it. ;) And even then I'd be against such a thing if the argumentation will remain as weak as it is now and if the purpose/reason will remain as undefined. > because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet > goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. Dima, are you _that_ naive? Really? If my postsoviet, etc. government will decide to teach me some lessons - it will not matter _much_ whether UA.LUCKYNET is served by RIPE NCC, RIPE NCC Office in Moscow or RIPE NCC Office in Kyiv. I'll get the lesson straight in my... rear part. > > Be honest and strong > or > I mistakened and I never heard such words from > you and your friends. May be you are referring to my words during the meeting then. To understand them the unprepared reader (who BTW will most surely skip this discussion altogether) needs to know about the context. During the Moscow meeting several persons including you and Mr.Platonov gave one more argument for RIR creation. You've said that Russian government is going to get serious hold on the Internet development in Russia. (So it is _you_ who is afraid of _your_ government ;) You have said something to the effect that other CIS countries are either experiencing same problems or are going to experience them RSN (tm). One of the steps Russian government will excercise, said Mr.Platonov, would be to create "governmental" RIR and then influence Internet market through this RIR. [As a sidenote, knowing what ROSNIIROS or RIPN is and how it've been created, one gets serious suspicion that Mr.Platonov is doing this very thing - but I'm not interested in this]. Now, the international status of RIR, said you, would make it more difficult for _any_ government to control it (again, who is afraid?). As an answer, I've told you that if Ukrainian government will try this, the fact of RIR being in Moscow will play _against_ me. Should I tell you why? And does this mean that I'm afraid of my government more than you are? > > In such case, sorry guys... > "Apologies accepted" (c) Dart Weider ;)))) > > Regards, > Dmitri > > > Yours, -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 18:30:07 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:30:07 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181620.TAA12610@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > Andrew, sorry, but I want to make only two remarks. It seems to me, > that it would be better for me to stop participating in this > discussion as far as: > I'm an advocate of goverment regulation; > I want to form "Russian Union" in Internet > etc. etc. Probably you have taken my comments as an offense... please take my apologies, I just sincerely want to have all this cleared. > 1) There do exists some part of RIPE community (ISPs from Russia, > Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine - about 45) that is served by RosNIIROS. ^ only 1 LIR from Ukraine, though; you are serving mostly Russian territory > Let's fix that it's not interesting for me _why_ do they like > such a scheme. I'm interested now only to increase the quality of service > for them. Just now I cannot do it because I'd be forced to rise > tariffs to have some more staff, equipment, etc. - now I just "channelize" > money to RIPE NCC. The problem can be solved within existing RIPE NCC > tariffs only under some status, and RIPE office is quite good. Ok, I accept this argumentation as worth to be discussed. This is something realistic. Pity you didn't mention this argument in ripe-167. > 2) The problem of RIR is much more complicated and needs further > discussion. As far as you speak about ripe-167+ document, I understand > that you are not rejecting this project at all. Sure I don't and I weren't and if you recall, at Moscow meeting I was trying to add some critical parts to the decision etc. Please don't think that I just have some destructive goals "as such". But the issues we are dealing with are pretty serious, so I'd like your position to be solid and better argumented in order to be taken into account as something really creative. It wasn't solid... > I hope you are informed > that working group on this problem already exists and prepares preliminary > documents (and you are welcome of course, as well as any other person > interested in the problem under consideration). Yes, I'm considering this. > By the way, I'm not the > member of this WG, I'm only the consultant. Some document (say, ripe-167+) > will be the result of this work. Let's wait until the new document will arrive, Ok? > As you can notice, these items follow two stages described in ripe-167. > I still think that this document is reasonable as far as it reflects > reality, though the argumentation is not fully adequate. A better document is badly needed, anyway -- don't you agree? > It seems to me, that the above text doesn't contrdict your position > or I don't understand anything. We -- means you and me :) -- got some understanding, that's it. So would you mind reviewing my own answers (on your behalf) to my own questions, please? > > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including > > ^^^^ > > Would you please mind clarifying in details: who "you" (see "we" above) > > are? You answer should be: "we" means the community, represented by the working group recently formed. Yes? > > > I have to do something with the > > > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, > > > > Why do you think you *have to* do something? What's wrong > > with current state of affairs? Why something should be > > changed? Ok, let's consider the above 3 questions answered by you already. You already have customers, you want to continue your activities and expand them, and to survive financialy, and to increase quality of service. Be it so. > > Why attempts to expand the scope of RosNIIROS IR > > to adjucent countries? this last question is the most > > interesting and important for me. And this one? am I right feeling that if you are serving a single LIR in Ukraine, you feel that the whole Ukraine should be served by you also? > > Ok, am I understabding correctly, that without getting > > a "RIPE NCC" label on the frontdoor RosNIIROS can't increase > > the quality of service it provides? and this is the one and > > only real problem? And this question I'd like to ask: did you consider some ways of increasing the quality of your service, other than getting a "RIPE Office" and "RIR" label, but just remaining to be RosNIIROS? Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From plat at ripn.net Wed Feb 18 20:43:57 1998 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:43:57 +0300 (MSK/MSD) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at "Feb 18, 98 07:30:07 pm" Message-ID: <199802181943.WAA14767@argo.ripn.net> According to Andrew Stesin: > On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > 1) There do exists some part of RIPE community (ISPs from Russia, > > Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine - about 45) that is served by RosNIIROS. > ^ > only 1 LIR from Ukraine, though; > you are serving mostly Russian territory Of course, I'm not going to make some secret from the fact that these ISP mainly represent Russia. Only one remark: some of ISPs that have signed "Memorandum" (Relcom, Sovam, ...) serve the territory of FSU. > > > > As you can notice, these items follow two stages described in ripe-167. > > I still think that this document is reasonable as far as it reflects > > reality, though the argumentation is not fully adequate. > > A better document is badly needed, anyway -- don't you agree? > Of course, but I never insisted that ripe-167 gives all details. It's just some direction to move. The only question is: if we understand that the direction is right, shall we move or we need detailed plan from the beginning to the final? The main contradiction between our positions (if I understand) is that I prefer to move immediately, step by step, even if we have no detailed plan for all path. > > It seems to me, that the above text doesn't contrdict your position > > or I don't understand anything. > > We -- means you and me :) -- got some understanding, that's it. > > So would you mind reviewing my own answers (on your behalf) to my own > questions, please? > > > > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including > > > ^^^^ > > > Would you please mind clarifying in details: who "you" (see "we" above) > > > are? > > You answer should be: "we" means the community, represented > by the working group recently formed. Yes? you are right > > > > > I have to do something with the > > > > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, > > > > > > Why do you think you *have to* do something? What's wrong > > > with current state of affairs? Why something should be > > > changed? > > Ok, let's consider the above 3 questions answered by you already. > You already have customers, you want to continue your > activities and expand them, and to survive financialy, and to increase > quality of service. Be it so. > > > > Why attempts to expand the scope of RosNIIROS IR > > > to adjucent countries? this last question is the most > > > interesting and important for me. > > And this one? am I right feeling that if you are serving > a single LIR in Ukraine, you feel that the whole > Ukraine should be served by you also? no. You again mix things. On the first step we give the _opportunity_ to be served in RIPE NCC office for all who prefer it. As for the second step, I repeat once more - it'not clear how to do, and with large probability it's not RosNIIROS that will be the base for RIR. As it was mentioned already, the optimal scheme is RNA. > > > > Ok, am I understabding correctly, that without getting > > > a "RIPE NCC" label on the frontdoor RosNIIROS can't increase > > > the quality of service it provides? and this is the one and > > > only real problem? > > And this question I'd like to ask: did you consider some ways > of increasing the quality of your service, other than > getting a "RIPE Office" and "RIR" label, but just remaining to > be RosNIIROS? I'm quite sure that without coordination with RIPE, both financial and organizational, it's impossible to do something reasonable. > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > Best regards, Alexei Platonov From henrikb at proventum.net Wed Feb 18 20:57:11 1998 From: henrikb at proventum.net (Henrik Bremerskov) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:57:11 +0000 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting References: <199802181943.WAA14767@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <34EB3D17.C479B74B@proventum.net> HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS CRAB ? Alexei Platonov wrote: > According to Andrew Stesin: > > On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > > > 1) There do exists some part of RIPE community (ISPs from Russia, > > > Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine - about 45) that is served by RosNIIROS. > > ^ > > only 1 LIR from Ukraine, though; > > you are serving mostly Russian territory > > Of course, I'm not going to make some secret from the fact that > these ISP mainly represent Russia. Only one remark: some of ISPs that > have signed "Memorandum" (Relcom, Sovam, ...) serve the territory of FSU. > > > > > > > > As you can notice, these items follow two stages described in ripe-167. > > > I still think that this document is reasonable as far as it reflects > > > reality, though the argumentation is not fully adequate. > > > > A better document is badly needed, anyway -- don't you agree? > > > > Of course, but I never insisted that ripe-167 gives all details. It's > just some direction to move. The only question is: if we understand that > the direction is right, shall we move or we need detailed plan from > the beginning to the final? The main contradiction between our positions > (if I understand) is that I prefer to move immediately, step by step, > even if we have no detailed plan for all path. > > > > It seems to me, that the above text doesn't contrdict your position > > > or I don't understand anything. > > > > We -- means you and me :) -- got some understanding, that's it. > > > > So would you mind reviewing my own answers (on your behalf) to my own > > questions, please? > > > > > > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including > > > > ^^^^ > > > > Would you please mind clarifying in details: who "you" (see "we" above) > > > > are? > > > > You answer should be: "we" means the community, represented > > by the working group recently formed. Yes? > > you are right > > > > > > > I have to do something with the > > > > > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, > > > > > > > > Why do you think you *have to* do something? What's wrong > > > > with current state of affairs? Why something should be > > > > changed? > > > > Ok, let's consider the above 3 questions answered by you already. > > You already have customers, you want to continue your > > activities and expand them, and to survive financialy, and to increase > > quality of service. Be it so. > > > > > > Why attempts to expand the scope of RosNIIROS IR > > > > to adjucent countries? this last question is the most > > > > interesting and important for me. > > > > And this one? am I right feeling that if you are serving > > a single LIR in Ukraine, you feel that the whole > > Ukraine should be served by you also? > > no. You again mix things. On the first step we give the _opportunity_ to > be served in RIPE NCC office for all who prefer it. As for the second > step, I repeat once more - it'not clear how to do, and with large > probability it's not RosNIIROS that will be the base for RIR. As it was > mentioned already, the optimal scheme is RNA. > > > > > > > Ok, am I understabding correctly, that without getting > > > > a "RIPE NCC" label on the frontdoor RosNIIROS can't increase > > > > the quality of service it provides? and this is the one and > > > > only real problem? > > > > And this question I'd like to ask: did you consider some ways > > of increasing the quality of your service, other than > > getting a "RIPE Office" and "RIR" label, but just remaining to > > be RosNIIROS? > > I'm quite sure that without coordination with RIPE, both financial and > organizational, it's impossible to do something reasonable. > > > > > Best regards, > > Andrew Stesin > > > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > > > > > Best regards, > Alexei Platonov From violet at rosnet.net Thu Feb 19 00:51:50 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:51:50 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Andrew Stesin on Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802182351.CAA19436@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate A> here? In no way. What about yours? Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable A> question here while asking what's wrong A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" A> ("this" means the current state of things). A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot A> live being served by RIPE directly any more; A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons? Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too. And some would prefer be served in Moscow. On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors. A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice A> of where to be served from those countries. Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow. We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... A> My conclusion: A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway? A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. I am afraid you mistreat the approach. >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they? I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not. As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me. >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered >> by the fact somebody else wants ? A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration >> the facts no matter if we like them or not. A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... A> if there will be any. But not now, please! Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. And it's done ;-) (joke) I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or later or never! That is your choice only. As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. And we try it. And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A> Best regards, A> Andrew Stesin A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE Kind regards, -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From stesin at gu.net Thu Feb 19 14:30:14 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802182351.CAA19436@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE establish a RIR without an agreement in the community of the region served? RIR creation should be initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, or am I missing something? > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. fSU is not a region. Please use non-political but geographical terms for defining region borders. > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". 1:1 > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its main ideas in a moment. > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain at this point. > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) There are some benefits and some losses... > If you suppose uniting of > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until it will be though out carefully in all the details and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Would you mind pointing me at the written document where one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you ought to know English, point. If you don't know English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff is more knowlegeable. Agreed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Feb 18 15:51:38 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:51:38 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181226.PAA07945@argo.ripn.net> from "Alexei Platonov" at Feb 18, 98 03:26:01 pm Message-ID: <199802181451.QAA23714@office.lucky.net> > > Do you think that things will go better if you will keep > > them in silence and darkness? > > I do not think so. I want to see more constructive discussion. Ok. What do you want to discuss then? It had been shown clearly enough during the ongoing discussion that argumentation in RIPE-167 is weak enough even for Russia and merely inappropriate for CIS. If you want to use constructive approach then IMHO it could be done like this: 1. The process of creating the new RIR should be suspended since it's not obvious what will be created and why. 2. Another document should be issued with much more solid motivation (if you have it) and the document should clearly state how the intended process of transition would work, what region will be served, etc. 3. The new document should be discussed then. If all you've said during this discussion w.r.t. your intentions holds true, then you should clearly see this approach as advantegeous. > > How about my proposal of creating a ripe-167+ document, > > reviewed, revised, more solid and with more representative > > authorship? > > Yes, I like it. I want only to mention that this is just what we > decided in Moscow (only ripe-167+ was not mentioned): to establish > RIPE office and continue to work on documents on RIR within working Ughh... First we create some formal organization and then let it work out, what it should do, what territory it serves,... Correct? A very nice thing and waaay professional... Oh, by the way, regarding Moscow meeting. The document adopted there indicates the whole FSU territory as the region served by RIR. It disregards what you've called the "consolidated opinion" of Ukrainian ISPs. Will your workgroup continue to disregard other's opinions? Then it's official status may result in many problems. > group which is open to all interested parties. By the way, the > working group has already prepared some documents and is ready > to submit them for starting discussion. > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including > the RIPE NCC office - otherwise nothing will be done. The discussion > that we participate in can last till infinity. The discussion surely _will_ continue to infinity if you do not have well-motivated, well-argumented proposals with clearly stated purpose and with support from the majority of LIRs situated in every country/territory you want to serve. If you cannot get support - do not include the territory. If your motivation is not accepted by the community you want to serve - you have wrong motivation. Would you like to start _practical_ work without clear understanding of the tasks you want to carry out, without clear understanding of whom do you serve and what are advantages of being served by you? If so, then the professional level of the new RIR (or RIPE NCC Office in Moscow for that matter) would seem to be... low. > And you should take into consideration that the office works _de facto_ > the last 1,5 years, you know about it. I have to do something with the Then what is wrong with it working de facto another half a year without the official status? And to finally make all the others understand your position, goals and intentions, to formalize the transition process and procedures, to ... Well, you probably got the idea. > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, either to stop it > immediately (quality of service is falling due to unregulated scheme, > both financial and organizational) or to move forward. So, in a nutshell, you want to say the following: "I am serving some 50 LIRs now for free. I want to get money for my service. Currently my service is bad but as you pay me money, it will become more appropriate. Take my word for it. Now, since I want to establish the RIR, I need to indicate the region. I'm serving several LIRs from abroad Russia, so let the region be FSU. And no, I do not have good arguments for why the RIR should be created except we need money badly to increase the level of service. But see guys - I'm honest! Take my vows for it!" Right? > > Regards, > Alexei Platonov > > > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 16:11:34 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:11:34 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> Message-ID: Hi Dmitry, On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Dmitri Bourkov wrote: > > It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > > to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > > it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > > > > Andrei, > I don't like to continue discussion in such form. > I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your > goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. Your words above are neither true nor acceptable as argumentation "pro" "RIR-in-Moscow" project. > I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, > when you substituted arguments and problems. > > For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev Huh? Would you mind reminding me about THIS proposal, please? What did I answer -- do you remember? I do. I said that the very first step *must* be a creation of ISP assosiation in Ukraine; everything else will be *after* this, 'cause how can you establish anything serious if you don't have a consensus within the representative community behind of it? That were you who decided to go another way in Russia -- no representative community, no agreement, but "forward! let's do it quickly, or it will be too late!" It might be a valid approach, though, by I don't agree with it so far -- you didn't convince me. > because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet > goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. Much simplier. We are happy with RIPE with regard to IP address allocation and we don't feel that any more complexity is needed for us in forseeable future. We are satisfied with the service. Everything is fine! But someone all of a sudden is pulling us (and our contributions, BTW) towards Moscow; what for? As for our Ukrainian goverment. Don't you think that *any* business unit, be it ISP or whatever, which operates on the territory of *any* state, MUST confirm with local laws whatever they are? or? shouldn't the unit be shut down otherwise? Nobody here wants to be shut down. That's the only weak issue in Ukraine for now which I'm aware of -- our local authorities just didn't invent the law for Internet here so far, but are moving towards it's creation. And we (ISP) are taking part in this process; so we are busy dealing with local issues, busy enough here even without any extra political "innovations" brought to us from abroad (either from Russian goverment of whomever else). Technology and business are enough work on their own. TLD is all another story, but it's out of topic for this discussion. > Be honest and strong > or I mistakened and I never heard such words from > you and your friends. > > In such case, sorry guys... > Don't mention. Whatever you are saying isn't in any way a clarification for current ripe-167 approach, do you agree? > > Regards, > Dmitri > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 16:29:08 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:29:08 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181451.QAA23714@office.lucky.net> Message-ID: Hello all, On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Igor Romanenko wrote: [...] > 1. The process of creating the new RIR should be suspended since it's not > obvious what will be created and why. > 2. Another document should be issued with much more solid motivation > (if you have it) and the document should clearly state how the intended > process of transition would work, what region will be served, etc. > 3. The new document should be discussed then. That's exactly what I was proposing. Thanks to you Igor for better formal explanation. > If all you've said during this discussion w.r.t. your intentions holds true, > then you should clearly see this approach as advantegeous. Yes, this approach *is* advantageous! I beleive that the very best intentions were the only background of ripe-167; but this fact remained unclear and unexplained in details. The latter approach will allow to make everything clear, explained and obvious -- thus better probability of painless adoption of the proposal by the community. [...] > The discussion surely _will_ continue to infinity if you do not have > well-motivated, well-argumented proposals with clearly stated purpose > and with support from the majority of LIRs situated in every country/territory > you want to serve. If you cannot get support - do not include the territory. > If your motivation is not accepted by the community you want to serve - > you have wrong motivation. Yes, that's it. It would be nice to hear comments on this last paragraph of Igor's notes from other readers of the list -- I think either Igor's approach is correct here, or I have a fundamentally wrong understanding of the decision process in RIPE. Thanks in advanse. > Would you like to start _practical_ work > without clear understanding of the tasks you want to carry out, > without clear understanding of whom do you serve and what are advantages > of being served by you? If so, then the professional level of the new > RIR (or RIPE NCC Office in Moscow for that matter) would seem to be... low. [... a question to Alexei Platonov: ...] > So, in a nutshell, you want to say the following: > "I am serving some 50 LIRs now for free. I want to get money for my service. > Currently my service is bad but as you pay me money, it will become > more appropriate. Take my word for it. Now, since I want to establish > the RIR, I need to indicate the region. I'm serving several LIRs from abroad > Russia, so let the region be FSU. And no, I do not have good arguments for > why the RIR should be created except we need money badly to increase the > level of service. But see guys - I'm honest! Take my vows for it!" > > Right? It looks like this is pretty close to truth... comments? Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From violet at rosnet.net Wed Feb 18 16:25:50 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:25:50 +0300 Subject: PLEASE QUOTE CORRECT!!!! Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> (dburk@comstar.ru) Message-ID: <199802181525.SAA18436@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "D" == Dmitri Bourkov writes: D> To: D> Cc: D> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:34:53 +0300 D> -----Original Message----- D> From: Andrew Stesin D> To: Sergey A. Mukhin D> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net D> Date: 18 tebp`k 1998 c. 17:03 D> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> >> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even >> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever >> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I HAD NEVER WRITTEN THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH! PLEASE QUOTE CORRECT WAY!!! Sergey D> Andrei, D> I don't like to continue discussion in such form. D> I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your D> goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. D> I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, D> when you substituted arguments and problems. D> For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev D> because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet D> goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. D> Be honest and strong D> or D> I mistakened and I never heard such words from D> you and your friends. D> In such case, sorry guys... D> Regards, D> Dmitri -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From haug at seicom.net Wed Feb 18 16:33:27 1998 From: haug at seicom.net (Winfried Haug) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:33:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <009C1B33.B5D88AEC.7@cc.univie.ac.at> from "Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet" at "Feb 12, 98 11:42:07 am" Message-ID: <199802181533.QAA01585@hq.seicom.net> Hello... first of all, i want to mention, that we are not involved in any internet business in russia. We dont know how assigns domains, who is responsible for what etc.. But all statements on this list seem to me like a political problem, but because all know that this isnt a good reason to split RIPE, some are trying to find other arguments... We (de.seicom) dont consider language problems or time-zones justify to establish a new RIPE If we start this, some other countries will apply for a (X)RIPE with the same reason... BTW: Germany is raising and it would be much more easier to talk with a LIR in Germany in german language.. Frankfurt would be real central for germany, we have a good mc Donalds in the train station... I hope this are good reasons for establishing GRIPE in Germany (german Ripe). *sigh* ok nice joke... But please find real and good reasons why a new RIPE should be established in Moscow or somewhere else... I am boring to see all this boring mailings on this list. And if the russian LIR are not able to communicate in english language with the RIPE NCC in Amsterdam, and there are so much LIR from Russia, a hostmaster with the ability to speak russian should work in Amsterdam..:-) But i expect, that a fundamental knowledge of the english language is essential for internet business, whether you are from germany, france, spain, russia or from any other country... Winni --- Winfried Haug | SEICOM.DE & SCHWABEN.DE | Tel. +49 7121 9770- 0 Laiblinsplatz 12 | Internet+ISDN access & consulting | Fax. +49 7121 9770-19 72793 Pfullingen | Access in STGT + RT + TUE + BB + LB | Rack +49 7127 989-X haug at schwaben.net| 150*ISDN (64kb/X.75) / 100 * K56flex | Rack +49 711 9675-X haug at seicom.net |SAP-OSS * FTP * TELNET * NETNEWS * IRC | Rack +49 7121 709-X * 10 MBit DE-CIX * 2 MBit INXS * 3 MBit ecrc/ebone * 2 Mbit Belwue * 2 Mbit WIN From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Feb 18 17:29:14 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:29:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> from "Dmitri Bourkov" at Feb 18, 98 05:34:53 pm Message-ID: <199802181629.SAA24064@office.lucky.net> > Andrei, > I don't like to continue discussion in such form. > I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your > goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. Dima, you continue to insist on this reason. I'll not try to persuade you (for the third time in a raw) that you are wrong. Instead I'll ask you: well, imagine you are right. What then? How will this influence the new RIR creation except adding reasons against it? > > I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, > when you substituted arguments and problems. > > For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev The correct spelling is Kyiv, clumsy as it is ;) And I've not heard someone _seriously_ proposing this. I mean: where are you going to recruit the staff, what about the apartments, etc. Well, I hope that UA.LUCKYNET will be able to resolve these problems if it comes to it. ;) And even then I'd be against such a thing if the argumentation will remain as weak as it is now and if the purpose/reason will remain as undefined. > because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet > goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. Dima, are you _that_ naive? Really? If my postsoviet, etc. government will decide to teach me some lessons - it will not matter _much_ whether UA.LUCKYNET is served by RIPE NCC, RIPE NCC Office in Moscow or RIPE NCC Office in Kyiv. I'll get the lesson straight in my... rear part. > > Be honest and strong > or > I mistakened and I never heard such words from > you and your friends. May be you are referring to my words during the meeting then. To understand them the unprepared reader (who BTW will most surely skip this discussion altogether) needs to know about the context. During the Moscow meeting several persons including you and Mr.Platonov gave one more argument for RIR creation. You've said that Russian government is going to get serious hold on the Internet development in Russia. (So it is _you_ who is afraid of _your_ government ;) You have said something to the effect that other CIS countries are either experiencing same problems or are going to experience them RSN (tm). One of the steps Russian government will excercise, said Mr.Platonov, would be to create "governmental" RIR and then influence Internet market through this RIR. [As a sidenote, knowing what ROSNIIROS or RIPN is and how it've been created, one gets serious suspicion that Mr.Platonov is doing this very thing - but I'm not interested in this]. Now, the international status of RIR, said you, would make it more difficult for _any_ government to control it (again, who is afraid?). As an answer, I've told you that if Ukrainian government will try this, the fact of RIR being in Moscow will play _against_ me. Should I tell you why? And does this mean that I'm afraid of my government more than you are? > > In such case, sorry guys... > "Apologies accepted" (c) Dart Weider ;)))) > > Regards, > Dmitri > > > Yours, -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Feb 18 17:29:14 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:29:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181435.RAA25756@bsd.post.comstar.ru> from "Dmitri Bourkov" at Feb 18, 98 05:34:53 pm Message-ID: <199802181629.SAA24064@office.lucky.net> From stesin at gu.net Wed Feb 18 18:30:07 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:30:07 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802181620.TAA12610@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Alexei Platonov wrote: > Andrew, sorry, but I want to make only two remarks. It seems to me, > that it would be better for me to stop participating in this > discussion as far as: > I'm an advocate of goverment regulation; > I want to form "Russian Union" in Internet > etc. etc. Probably you have taken my comments as an offense... please take my apologies, I just sincerely want to have all this cleared. > 1) There do exists some part of RIPE community (ISPs from Russia, > Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine - about 45) that is served by RosNIIROS. ^ only 1 LIR from Ukraine, though; you are serving mostly Russian territory > Let's fix that it's not interesting for me _why_ do they like > such a scheme. I'm interested now only to increase the quality of service > for them. Just now I cannot do it because I'd be forced to rise > tariffs to have some more staff, equipment, etc. - now I just "channelize" > money to RIPE NCC. The problem can be solved within existing RIPE NCC > tariffs only under some status, and RIPE office is quite good. Ok, I accept this argumentation as worth to be discussed. This is something realistic. Pity you didn't mention this argument in ripe-167. > 2) The problem of RIR is much more complicated and needs further > discussion. As far as you speak about ripe-167+ document, I understand > that you are not rejecting this project at all. Sure I don't and I weren't and if you recall, at Moscow meeting I was trying to add some critical parts to the decision etc. Please don't think that I just have some destructive goals "as such". But the issues we are dealing with are pretty serious, so I'd like your position to be solid and better argumented in order to be taken into account as something really creative. It wasn't solid... > I hope you are informed > that working group on this problem already exists and prepares preliminary > documents (and you are welcome of course, as well as any other person > interested in the problem under consideration). Yes, I'm considering this. > By the way, I'm not the > member of this WG, I'm only the consultant. Some document (say, ripe-167+) > will be the result of this work. Let's wait until the new document will arrive, Ok? > As you can notice, these items follow two stages described in ripe-167. > I still think that this document is reasonable as far as it reflects > reality, though the argumentation is not fully adequate. A better document is badly needed, anyway -- don't you agree? > It seems to me, that the above text doesn't contrdict your position > or I don't understand anything. We -- means you and me :) -- got some understanding, that's it. So would you mind reviewing my own answers (on your behalf) to my own questions, please? > > > The only thing I insist: we need to begin _practical_ work, including > > ^^^^ > > Would you please mind clarifying in details: who "you" (see "we" above) > > are? You answer should be: "we" means the community, represented by the working group recently formed. Yes? > > > I have to do something with the > > > community that already gets service through RosNIIROS, > > > > Why do you think you *have to* do something? What's wrong > > with current state of affairs? Why something should be > > changed? Ok, let's consider the above 3 questions answered by you already. You already have customers, you want to continue your activities and expand them, and to survive financialy, and to increase quality of service. Be it so. > > Why attempts to expand the scope of RosNIIROS IR > > to adjucent countries? this last question is the most > > interesting and important for me. And this one? am I right feeling that if you are serving a single LIR in Ukraine, you feel that the whole Ukraine should be served by you also? > > Ok, am I understabding correctly, that without getting > > a "RIPE NCC" label on the frontdoor RosNIIROS can't increase > > the quality of service it provides? and this is the one and > > only real problem? And this question I'd like to ask: did you consider some ways of increasing the quality of your service, other than getting a "RIPE Office" and "RIR" label, but just remaining to be RosNIIROS? Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From stesin at gu.net Thu Feb 19 14:30:14 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802182351.CAA19436@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE establish a RIR without an agreement in the community of the region served? RIR creation should be initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, or am I missing something? > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. fSU is not a region. Please use non-political but geographical terms for defining region borders. > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". 1:1 > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its main ideas in a moment. > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain at this point. > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) There are some benefits and some losses... > If you suppose uniting of > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until it will be though out carefully in all the details and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Would you mind pointing me at the written document where one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you ought to know English, point. If you don't know English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff is more knowlegeable. Agreed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From violet at rosnet.net Thu Feb 19 00:51:50 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:51:50 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Andrew Stesin on Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802182351.CAA19436@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate A> here? In no way. What about yours? Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable A> question here while asking what's wrong A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" A> ("this" means the current state of things). A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot A> live being served by RIPE directly any more; A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons? Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too. And some would prefer be served in Moscow. On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors. A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice A> of where to be served from those countries. Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow. We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... A> My conclusion: A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway? A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. I am afraid you mistreat the approach. >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they? I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not. As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me. >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered >> by the fact somebody else wants ? A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration >> the facts no matter if we like them or not. A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... A> if there will be any. But not now, please! Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. And it's done ;-) (joke) I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or later or never! That is your choice only. As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. And we try it. And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A> Best regards, A> Andrew Stesin A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE Kind regards, -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From amilutin at ukrpack.net Thu Feb 19 17:29:52 1998 From: amilutin at ukrpack.net (amilutin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:29:52 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802191629.SAA02496@AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> ---------- > From: Andrew Stesin > To: Sergey A. Mukhin > Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net; ncc at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 3:30 PM > > On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > of the region served? RIR creation should be > initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > or am I missing something? > > > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > fSU is not a region. Please use non-political > but geographical terms for defining region borders. > > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? > > Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > 1:1 Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote! > > > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. > > ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > main ideas in a moment. > > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain > at this point. > > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) > > There are some benefits and some losses... > > > If you suppose uniting of > > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until > it will be though out carefully in all the details > and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. > > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > > free choice for all. > > Would you mind pointing me at the written document where > one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > ought to know English, point. If you don't know > English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > is more knowlegeable. > I would suggest that the language problem should be removed at all as the irrelevant issue. Everybody knows, regardless of whatever they say, that the usage of English is inevitable. Apart from sending requests to the hostmaster at ripe.net every tech person at any LIR should maintain some objects in the database themselves using the auto-dbm at ripe.net. What language are you supposed to use when submiting requests to a database which, by the way, must be accessible and readable from anywhere in the World? > Agreed? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > From amilutin at ukrpack.net Thu Feb 19 17:35:28 1998 From: amilutin at ukrpack.net (amilutin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802191635.SAA02558@AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> ---------- > From: Sergey A. Mukhin > To: stesin at gu.net > Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM > > >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: > A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) > A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" > A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > > A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > >> > >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > > A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate > A> here? > > In no way. What about yours? > > Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. > > >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? > > A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities > A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, > A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? > > A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable > A> question here while asking what's wrong > A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a > A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" > A> ("this" means the current state of things). > > A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, > A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET > A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot > A> live being served by RIPE directly any more; > A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) > A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. > > A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons? > > Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate > to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too. > And some would prefer be served in Moscow. > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already > given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors. > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow. > We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here > in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult > present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this message. "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote!" > > A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > > A> My conclusion: > > A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to > A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ > A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation > A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship > A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where > A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway? > > A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have > A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support > A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs > A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is > A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National > A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my > own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not. > > As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit > vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point > of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me. > > >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > >> by the fact somebody else wants ? > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you > point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is > a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by > definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. > > I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow > such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). > > >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still > >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can > >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration > >> the facts no matter if we like them or not. > > A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another > A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe > A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear > A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... > A> if there will be any. But not now, please! > > Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. > And it's done ;-) (joke) > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > > Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or > later or never! That is your choice only. > > As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. > And we try it. > > And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does > not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > A> Best regards, > A> Andrew Stesin > > A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > Kind regards, > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From ptitz at wplus.net Thu Feb 19 18:25:40 1998 From: ptitz at wplus.net (Dmitry Mishin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:25:40 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Stesin at Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) References: Message-ID: In message Andrew Stesin writes: >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > ought to know English, point. If you don't know > English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > is more knowlegeable. I agree with these words about tech. persons, but business isn't only technical questions. We (tech-c) have no troubles with RIPE, but can't say this about my financial department and billing at ripe.net. Moreover, I have to point, there are much more difficulties with solving financial problems, mostly idiotic, with RIPE as a public organisation, then with our other foreign commercial partners. The post-soviet financial rules are too far from european. -- D.Mishin From igor at office.lucky.net Thu Feb 19 21:06:00 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802182351.CAA19436@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 19, 98 02:51:50 am Message-ID: <199802192006.WAA29389@office.lucky.net> > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree AFAIK, RIPE does not have enough priveleges to create another RIR just by itself without IANA. RIPE Office would be fine as long as it remains just part of RIPE. But when you say "RIR" this immediately brings back the issue of choosing which RIR serves which region (RIR is a _Regional_ IR). Should I repeat once more what problems arise from this issue? > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. It is difficult to mistreat something not clearly defined, you know... > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you > point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is You are most welcome, my dear ;) Here is how: 1. Install the new RIR with region == FSU 2. Make RIPE beleive that the service is good and the new RIR provides sufficient service for all the region. 3. Make RIPE issue RIPE-nnn document which states that from now on all LIRs in FSU are served exclusively by the new RIR. Voila, you are there. When any LIR asks to be served by RIPE, RIPE will answer: according to RIPE-nnn you should be served by the new RIR. Not that I'm deadly serious about this scenario, but I do want some guarantee that it would not happen. > a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by > definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. Let me remind you what Captain Blood once said: "I'm offering you a free choice: either sign this document or I'll kill you" ;))) Anyone can get out any time at the price of not being LIR anymore. Is that it? ;))) > I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow > such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). ;) > > Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. We most definitely do need RIPE. (non-joke) > And it's done ;-) (joke) > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. What then? > Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or > later or never! That is your choice only. > > As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. > And we try it. OK, go ahead and try. Nobody objects. But please, don't make the assumption that others will be happy with your solution. (BTW, you made this assumption also when counting only those "contra", assuming that all others are "pro"). In other words: substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere in RIPE-167 and ask RIPE to allow LIRs not situated in Russia to be served by the new RIR (RRIR? Russian Regional IR) as an option. This seems to resolve the problem. Now, is this acceptible for you? > And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does > not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? The idea may be right or wrong. But if some feel that it is wrong, do you need to pull them with you? > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From violet at rosnet.net Thu Feb 19 21:58:52 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:58:52 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Vladimir Lebedev on Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:51:55 +0300 Message-ID: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "V" == Vladimir Lebedev writes: V> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:51:55 +0300 V> To: lir-wg at ripe.net V> Cc: joker at rtsnet.ru, ant at rtsnet.ru, igor at rtsnet.ru V> Alexei Platonov wrote: >> According to Sergey Gulchuck: >> > >> > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so >> > > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. >> > >> > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? >> >> May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people >> from the list? The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision >> and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? V> Looking at the large number of replies on the [ripe-167] topic I think that number V> of people who interested in this discussion is not just "few". Moreover, in this V> discussion participating peolple not only from CIS countries, but all over the V> Europe. V> I'm looking at the discussion and it reminds me a situation in FidoNet at the early V> 90th. There was a try to separate CIS countries netwokrs from Europe! Our V> "independent" Moscow's guys wanted to create Zone 7 for CIS, independend from Zone 2 V> (Europe) with own Zone Coordinator and all other attributes of power, for example V> rights to assign Fido network numbers for geographical regions. Formal reasons was V> absolutely the same: language issues, time zone difference etc., etc. Thanks God, V> that "coup" was unseccussful. V> Now the history repeating, but at this time with Internet. I hope the finish of the V> story will be the same. Well, history never repeats the same exactly. Just something in common with the past; often appearance but not the actual reasons. Yes, there seems to be something in common here. Far not everything, however. First, now we ( ISPs ) have a pretty simple dilemma: A) we ( I mean the Association ) takes the control or B) our government does it. Do you need any more comments ? V> I want to make clear for the audience the real reason of this "independance V> movement": MONOPOLIZATION OF IP NETWORK ADDRESSES ASSIGNMENT IN RUSSIA AND OTHER CIS V> COUNTRIES BY ROSNIIROS (RIPN). V> RIPN had already monopolized the domain name delegation under ".ru", and the only V> thing this they doesn't hove at this time is control under the network addresses. Nope. Here you are wrong. RIPN had monopolized RU. Internic had monopolized COM, NET, ORG and EDU. RIPE had monopolized a big block of IP address space. God had monopolized the Universe. How far it is possible to get thinking that way ? V> If they receive this control, can you imagine the amount of money that will be V> "informally" squezeed from russian LIR's for the good relationship from the RIPN V> side? I can. It always was a favorite habit of some kind of people -- to dream about money in a neighbour's pocket. Was that an argument? Anyway, not so much money as you can imagine. And rather earned, not "squeezed". How about thinking for "If I were Bill Gates..."? Or it is better first to learn something about matters before speaking of them? V> Vladimir. V> Content-Description: Card for Vladimir Lebedev V> begin: vcard V> fn: Vladimir Lebedev V> n: Lebedev;Vladimir V> org: RTS Technical Center V> adr: 15, Chayanova str., bldg. 5;;3rd floor;Moscow;;125267;Russia V> email;internet: wal at rtsnet.ru V> title: Technical Director V> tel;work: +7 (095) 733 95 05 V> tel;fax: +7 (095) 733 95 15 V> note: ICQ #: 6857070 V> x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 V> x-mozilla-html: TRUE V> version: 2.1 V> end: vcard V> Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Thu Feb 19 22:47:35 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:47:35 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Andrew Stesin on Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802192147.AAA21458@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: A> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net, ncc at ripe.net A> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community A> of the region served? RIR creation should be A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, A> or am I missing something? Quite right. The community does exist and let it decide. Anyway the necessity of either RIR or RIPE office seems to me reasonable. >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. A> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political A> but geographical terms for defining region borders. I always thought the term "geographical region" makes sense. To pity I am not so good in geography to define something for sure in geographical terms. Let us speak about East Europe and, ugm, some of Asia region. More precisely, about LIRs in that region which found reasonable to unite and get a RIR or RIPE office. Would that do? I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition. A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice A> of where to be served from those countries. >> >> Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". A> 1:1 It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries. >> awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its A> main ideas in a moment. Well, it was available for far more time than a moment. >> >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. >> A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. >> >> I am afraid you mistreat the approach. A> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain A> at this point. Maybe. For that case there are its authors able to clarify details. >> >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. >> A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they? >> >> I meant benefits of uniting .(point) A> There are some benefits and some losses... Sure. As in any business though. Some people call that "choice". >> If you suppose uniting of >> everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? A> I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until A> it will be though out carefully in all the details A> and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. I think exactly so. :-) Very reasonable. A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. >> >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare >> free choice for all. A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this? Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter. >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff A> is more knowlegeable. A> Agreed? No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know English. You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and nothing will change. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> A> Best regards, A> Andrew Stesin A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From jasiniaq at it.pl Fri Feb 20 08:12:16 1998 From: jasiniaq at it.pl (Grzegorz Jasiniak) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:12:16 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: References: <199802181451.QAA23714@office.lucky.net> Message-ID: <199802200712.IAA23204@zloty.it.com.pl> Hi All!!! I don't know how it happened, that I'm receiving e-mail letters from this group (?)... Since I'm not interested in your discussion, please help me to unsubscribe... It's interesting, that I don't know how I subscribed my address to this group. Does this gropu have a moderator or some other kind of operator (admin etc.)? Thanx in advence for every help! Regards Grzegorz Jasiniak From ncc at ripe.net Fri Feb 20 10:23:27 1998 From: ncc at ripe.net (NCC Role Account) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:23:27 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802200923.KAA01745@office.ripe.net> Dear Grzegorz Jasiniak, Thank you for your mail concerning the RIPE-mailinglists. To make the procedure more easy for all sites we have an automatic "majordomo" mailing list manager which can handle your request. Please send e-mail to with one or more commands the body text. A list of all commands is included below (This is what you get when you send e-mail to with "help" in the body text.). If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us again. 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Mukhin >Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net ; ncc at ripe.net >Date: 19 tebp`k 1998 c. 18:52 >Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > > >>On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> >>> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number >>> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE >>> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE >> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community >> of the region served? RIR creation should be >> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, >> or am I missing something? > >Andrei, >stop! > >Please, be cool. >Who proposed RIR without such agreement, without bottom-up scheme? >I don't know such persons among us. > >But I'm simply tired to discuss the same things in parallel on two different languages >with the same persons :-). > > >local-ir at ripn.net >and >lir-wg at ripe.net > >Moreover, >I think it could be useful to compare the style and content of these lists :-) >I'm not interested to discuss language, historical and politics aspects. > >More important - is to join forces in organization of self-regulation >bottom-up scheme. > >Opinions on newIANA scheme will be more interesting; it is correlated, >in principle, with our discussion. >I know TLD-WG papers - but it is more significant then TLDs problems. > > >> >>> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a >>> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. >> >> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political >> but geographical terms for defining region borders. > >It is separate question - why IANA determined years ago geographical principle. > >. >> >> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain >> at this point. > > >Yes, >if today to write such document - it will be different - RNA - CENTR - newIANA... >It is new experience. > >> >>> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >>> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >>> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. >> >> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian >> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you >> ought to know English, point. If you don't know >> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff >> is more knowlegeable > >But I never met technical discussions in English inside CIS :-) - people >use Russian, except preparation official documents. >Russian is simply working language - technical slang is a mix of Russian with >English words. >All guys know English to follow procedure - that's right. > > I think, that one of the problem that in English the most people use one word > for different things. Russian as language and Russian as Rossiyanin. > But Rossiyanin isn't necessary Russian. > Russian language is an international communication language, > not such widespread as English. > > It is interesting - what I mentioned on Meeting and in local-ir - >that the most never read in English any RIPE's principal documents on organization, >policy issues, funding, except contract and procedure requirements. > >I don't want to continue these discussion on language themes. >It is separate story - more interesting to see Japanese, Chinese... >Life will show right way. > >I don't want to be an advocate of any inappropriative scheme for community. > I can't agree with some arguementation during this discussion. > > > > >Regards, >Dmitri >PS >For Europe - what does it mean Russian? >My daughters could be named British, Eestonian, French, German, Jewish, >Russian, Swedish. >Who they are? :-) From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 20 14:37:08 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:37:08 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Igor Romanenko on Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802201337.QAA22823@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "I" == Igor Romanenko writes: I> To: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) I> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: stesin at gu.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree I> AFAIK, RIPE does not have enough priveleges to create another RIR I> just by itself without IANA. RIPE Office would be fine as long I> as it remains just part of RIPE. But when you say "RIR" this immediately I> brings back the issue of choosing which RIR serves which region I> (RIR is a _Regional_ IR). Should I repeat once more what problems I> arise from this issue? >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. >> >> >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. >> A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. >> >> I am afraid you mistreat the approach. I> It is difficult to mistreat something not clearly defined, you know... Exactly. So again -- more details about that business are necessary. AFAIK there is a whole group busy developing details now. Cannot speak for them; however the results (IMHO!) are predictable enough -- they follow from the spirit of the original document. ( OK, "spirit" is not something real but nonetheless obvious enough ). Thus details must follow before anything real is done and they will. A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. >> >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare >> free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you >> point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is I> You are most welcome, my dear ;) Here is how: I> 1. Install the new RIR with region == FSU I> 2. Make RIPE beleive that the service is good and the new RIR I> provides sufficient service for all the region. I> 3. Make RIPE issue RIPE-nnn document which states that from now on all LIRs I> in FSU are served exclusively by the new RIR. I> Voila, you are there. When any LIR asks to be served by RIPE, I> RIPE will answer: according to RIPE-nnn you should be served by the new RIR. I> Not that I'm deadly serious about this scenario, but I do want some I> guarantee that it would not happen. >> a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by >> definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. I> Let me remind you what Captain Blood once said: "I'm offering you a free choice: I> either sign this document or I'll kill you" ;))) Anyone can get out I> any time at the price of not being LIR anymore. Is that it? ;))) >> I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow >> such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). I> ;) I did NOT say "Russia aches". ( It does not. ) I said "if it ached". >> >> Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. I> We most definitely do need RIPE. (non-joke) >> And it's done ;-) (joke) >> OK, but maybe if there grew more "us" we might need some more RIPE ? ( half a joke ;-) >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. I> What then? Then? Many in common between peoples ( of course if they have no strong feelings against it as Ukraine has ) BTW, that fact always seemed mysterious to me ;-) >> Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or >> later or never! That is your choice only. >> >> As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. >> And we try it. I> OK, go ahead and try. Nobody objects. But please, don't make the assumption Glad to hear it. :-) I> that others will be happy with your solution. (BTW, you made this assumption I> also when counting only those "contra", assuming that all others are "pro"). I> In other words: substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere in RIPE-167 I> and ask RIPE to allow LIRs not situated in Russia to be served by the I> new RIR (RRIR? Russian Regional IR) as an option. This seems to resolve I> the problem. Now, is this acceptible for you? No idea about happiness especially for somebody except my person ;-) There can be just "pro" or "contra" for given statement at given moment. Think speaking about "CIS" instead of "Russia" is a good idea. There is another point -- think if we need to create something it would be much better if it will not be just Russian. No precedences AFAIK for RIR of the only country. I cannot invent the name for it right now ( and hope there are people able doing that much better than me ) but IMHO it should _not_ have "Russian" as a part of its name. And for that matter it makes no "political" difference if it will be established not in Russia at all. That is again the technical matters and if I got Ukrainian representatives at that meeting right, Ukraine either has no wish to arrange it right now or no possibility. Who else could? >> And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does >> not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? I> The idea may be right or wrong. But if some feel that it is wrong, I> do you need to pull them with you? No need for it. And no possibility for that matter. We can just try to convince somebody if they do not refuse flatly ( as you did ). >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 20 15:00:26 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:00:26 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: "amilutin@ukrpack.net"'s message of Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 Message-ID: <199802201400.RAA22853@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "a" == amilutin writes: a> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" , a> Cc: a> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 a> ---------- >> From: Sergey A. Mukhin >> To: stesin at gu.net >> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM >> >> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net >> A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. >> >> >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) >> A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate A> here? >> >> In no way. What about yours? >> >> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. >> [sniff] a> Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's a> letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this a> message. a> "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out a> opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with a> interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list a> are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs a> in other European countries. Here is the vote!" Not sure _any_ majority is writing to this list. As well sorting just loud voices has very little in common with normal votes counting, doesn't it? [sniff] -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From stesin at gu.net Fri Feb 20 15:19:19 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:19:19 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802201337.QAA22823@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > There can be just "pro" or "contra" for given statement at given > moment. Think speaking about "CIS" instead of "Russia" is a good > idea. If say in year 2000 CIS will be denounced and go to Attic, what will you do? (HINT: continents and other geographical entities are much more neutral in all respects :) > There is another point -- think if we need to create something it > would be much better if it will not be just Russian. Better for whom? and how you define what is "better" and what is "worse"? (Write a solid document, guys, we'll discuss *it* than; no sense of continuing any discussion on the topic until the new document will be out at least as a draft). > I cannot invent the name for it right now ( and hope there are > people able doing that much better than me ) but IMHO it should > _not_ have "Russian" as a part of its name. If it is done following the initiative from Russia, for Russians and Russian-speakers, without a positive contribution of anyone else -- it *is* Russian, no matter how you call it. > And for that matter > it makes no "political" difference if it will be established > not in Russia at all. That is again the technical matters and > if I got Ukrainian representatives at that meeting right, Ukraine > either has no wish to arrange it right now or no possibility. We don't feel the need of doing this. Russia(ns) do. > No need for it. And no possibility for that matter. We can just try > to convince somebody if they do not refuse flatly ( as you did ). Ok, we are waiting for a new better and solid document. Show it to us, and we'll (probably) start thinking on it... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From stesin at gu.net Fri Feb 20 15:01:01 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:01:01 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192147.AAA21458@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > A> of the region served? RIR creation should be > A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > A> or am I missing something? > > Quite right. The community does exist ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Would you mind providing a proof of validity for this statement? [... region definition ...] > I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it > frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition. I don't like the definition above because we live today, looking for tomorrow, and "fSU" is the term from yesterday ("historical"). Who cares today about yesteday' mess? > A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > A> 1:1 > > It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What a nice news! ;) If say I wasn't present there physically, what the Decision' text could look like? Note: the text of the projected Decision of Moscow meeting wasn't published electronicaly and open for discussion! > was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they > sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- > let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if > I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries. Neither you nor me didn't get things right, because the documents (both ripe-167 and the Decision) are *very* unclear at this point and who knows where truth might be? > A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > A> main ideas in a moment. > > Well, it was available for far more time than a moment. ... and nobody cared starting polishing it until Moscow meeting. And nobody even cared to translate it to Russian so far. > A> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain > A> at this point. > > Maybe. For that case there are its authors able to clarify details. I'd like to see *the* document which is independent of any personalities (who may or may not change their opinions in time) and spoken opinions. [...] > >> If you suppose uniting of > >> everybody but us, *You* said this; I didn't. > >> that sounds a bit odd, does not it? [...] > >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > >> free choice for all. > > A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where > A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter. Ghmm. > >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know > A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > A> is more knowlegeable. > > A> Agreed? > > No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know > English. *This* statement of yours is plain wrong. Getting connected doesn't nessesary mean one should go learn English; > You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and > nothing will change. ... but those who serves people' connections *must* know English otherwise how can they perform their job? Please don't mix customer and provider, also LIR isn't just average provider; it's the next level of skills and experience, in general. > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From amilutin at ukrpack.net Thu Feb 19 17:29:52 1998 From: amilutin at ukrpack.net (amilutin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:29:52 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802191629.SAA02496@AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> ---------- > From: Andrew Stesin > To: Sergey A. Mukhin > Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net; ncc at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 3:30 PM > > On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > of the region served? RIR creation should be > initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > or am I missing something? > > > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > fSU is not a region. Please use non-political > but geographical terms for defining region borders. > > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? > > Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > 1:1 Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote! > > > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. > > ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > main ideas in a moment. > > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain > at this point. > > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) > > There are some benefits and some losses... > > > If you suppose uniting of > > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until > it will be though out carefully in all the details > and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. > > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > > free choice for all. > > Would you mind pointing me at the written document where > one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > ought to know English, point. If you don't know > English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > is more knowlegeable. > I would suggest that the language problem should be removed at all as the irrelevant issue. Everybody knows, regardless of whatever they say, that the usage of English is inevitable. Apart from sending requests to the hostmaster at ripe.net every tech person at any LIR should maintain some objects in the database themselves using the auto-dbm at ripe.net. What language are you supposed to use when submiting requests to a database which, by the way, must be accessible and readable from anywhere in the World? > Agreed? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > From ptitz at wplus.net Thu Feb 19 18:25:40 1998 From: ptitz at wplus.net (Dmitry Mishin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:25:40 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Stesin at Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) References: Message-ID: In message Andrew Stesin writes: >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > ought to know English, point. If you don't know > English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > is more knowlegeable. I agree with these words about tech. persons, but business isn't only technical questions. We (tech-c) have no troubles with RIPE, but can't say this about my financial department and billing at ripe.net. Moreover, I have to point, there are much more difficulties with solving financial problems, mostly idiotic, with RIPE as a public organisation, then with our other foreign commercial partners. The post-soviet financial rules are too far from european. -- D.Mishin From igor at office.lucky.net Thu Feb 19 21:06:00 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802182351.CAA19436@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 19, 98 02:51:50 am Message-ID: <199802192006.WAA29389@office.lucky.net> > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree AFAIK, RIPE does not have enough priveleges to create another RIR just by itself without IANA. RIPE Office would be fine as long as it remains just part of RIPE. But when you say "RIR" this immediately brings back the issue of choosing which RIR serves which region (RIR is a _Regional_ IR). Should I repeat once more what problems arise from this issue? > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. It is difficult to mistreat something not clearly defined, you know... > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you > point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is You are most welcome, my dear ;) Here is how: 1. Install the new RIR with region == FSU 2. Make RIPE beleive that the service is good and the new RIR provides sufficient service for all the region. 3. Make RIPE issue RIPE-nnn document which states that from now on all LIRs in FSU are served exclusively by the new RIR. Voila, you are there. When any LIR asks to be served by RIPE, RIPE will answer: according to RIPE-nnn you should be served by the new RIR. Not that I'm deadly serious about this scenario, but I do want some guarantee that it would not happen. > a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by > definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. Let me remind you what Captain Blood once said: "I'm offering you a free choice: either sign this document or I'll kill you" ;))) Anyone can get out any time at the price of not being LIR anymore. Is that it? ;))) > I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow > such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). ;) > > Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. We most definitely do need RIPE. (non-joke) > And it's done ;-) (joke) > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. What then? > Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or > later or never! That is your choice only. > > As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. > And we try it. OK, go ahead and try. Nobody objects. But please, don't make the assumption that others will be happy with your solution. (BTW, you made this assumption also when counting only those "contra", assuming that all others are "pro"). In other words: substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere in RIPE-167 and ask RIPE to allow LIRs not situated in Russia to be served by the new RIR (RRIR? Russian Regional IR) as an option. This seems to resolve the problem. Now, is this acceptible for you? > And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does > not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? The idea may be right or wrong. But if some feel that it is wrong, do you need to pull them with you? > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From violet at rosnet.net Thu Feb 19 22:47:35 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:47:35 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Andrew Stesin on Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802192147.AAA21458@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: A> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net, ncc at ripe.net A> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community A> of the region served? RIR creation should be A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, A> or am I missing something? Quite right. The community does exist and let it decide. Anyway the necessity of either RIR or RIPE office seems to me reasonable. >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. A> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political A> but geographical terms for defining region borders. I always thought the term "geographical region" makes sense. To pity I am not so good in geography to define something for sure in geographical terms. Let us speak about East Europe and, ugm, some of Asia region. More precisely, about LIRs in that region which found reasonable to unite and get a RIR or RIPE office. Would that do? I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition. A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice A> of where to be served from those countries. >> >> Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". A> 1:1 It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries. >> awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its A> main ideas in a moment. Well, it was available for far more time than a moment. >> >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. >> A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. >> >> I am afraid you mistreat the approach. A> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain A> at this point. Maybe. For that case there are its authors able to clarify details. >> >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. >> A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they? >> >> I meant benefits of uniting .(point) A> There are some benefits and some losses... Sure. As in any business though. Some people call that "choice". >> If you suppose uniting of >> everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? A> I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until A> it will be though out carefully in all the details A> and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. I think exactly so. :-) Very reasonable. A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. >> >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare >> free choice for all. A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this? Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter. >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff A> is more knowlegeable. A> Agreed? No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know English. You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and nothing will change. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> A> Best regards, A> Andrew Stesin A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Thu Feb 19 21:58:52 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:58:52 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Vladimir Lebedev on Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:51:55 +0300 Message-ID: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "V" == Vladimir Lebedev writes: V> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:51:55 +0300 V> To: lir-wg at ripe.net V> Cc: joker at rtsnet.ru, ant at rtsnet.ru, igor at rtsnet.ru V> Alexei Platonov wrote: >> According to Sergey Gulchuck: >> > >> > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so >> > > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. >> > >> > I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> This is the English translation for "Moskali" ? >> >> May be we shall stop this discussion which is interesting for just a few people >> from the list? The Ukrainian ISPs introduced their coordinated decision >> and in fact you have nothing to add. Or may be you have too much free time ? V> Looking at the large number of replies on the [ripe-167] topic I think that number V> of people who interested in this discussion is not just "few". Moreover, in this V> discussion participating peolple not only from CIS countries, but all over the V> Europe. V> I'm looking at the discussion and it reminds me a situation in FidoNet at the early V> 90th. There was a try to separate CIS countries netwokrs from Europe! Our V> "independent" Moscow's guys wanted to create Zone 7 for CIS, independend from Zone 2 V> (Europe) with own Zone Coordinator and all other attributes of power, for example V> rights to assign Fido network numbers for geographical regions. Formal reasons was V> absolutely the same: language issues, time zone difference etc., etc. Thanks God, V> that "coup" was unseccussful. V> Now the history repeating, but at this time with Internet. I hope the finish of the V> story will be the same. Well, history never repeats the same exactly. Just something in common with the past; often appearance but not the actual reasons. Yes, there seems to be something in common here. Far not everything, however. First, now we ( ISPs ) have a pretty simple dilemma: A) we ( I mean the Association ) takes the control or B) our government does it. Do you need any more comments ? V> I want to make clear for the audience the real reason of this "independance V> movement": MONOPOLIZATION OF IP NETWORK ADDRESSES ASSIGNMENT IN RUSSIA AND OTHER CIS V> COUNTRIES BY ROSNIIROS (RIPN). V> RIPN had already monopolized the domain name delegation under ".ru", and the only V> thing this they doesn't hove at this time is control under the network addresses. Nope. Here you are wrong. RIPN had monopolized RU. Internic had monopolized COM, NET, ORG and EDU. RIPE had monopolized a big block of IP address space. God had monopolized the Universe. How far it is possible to get thinking that way ? V> If they receive this control, can you imagine the amount of money that will be V> "informally" squezeed from russian LIR's for the good relationship from the RIPN V> side? I can. It always was a favorite habit of some kind of people -- to dream about money in a neighbour's pocket. Was that an argument? Anyway, not so much money as you can imagine. And rather earned, not "squeezed". How about thinking for "If I were Bill Gates..."? Or it is better first to learn something about matters before speaking of them? V> Vladimir. V> Content-Description: Card for Vladimir Lebedev V> begin: vcard V> fn: Vladimir Lebedev V> n: Lebedev;Vladimir V> org: RTS Technical Center V> adr: 15, Chayanova str., bldg. 5;;3rd floor;Moscow;;125267;Russia V> email;internet: wal at rtsnet.ru V> title: Technical Director V> tel;work: +7 (095) 733 95 05 V> tel;fax: +7 (095) 733 95 15 V> note: ICQ #: 6857070 V> x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 V> x-mozilla-html: TRUE V> version: 2.1 V> end: vcard V> Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From amilutin at ukrpack.net Thu Feb 19 17:35:28 1998 From: amilutin at ukrpack.net (amilutin) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802191635.SAA02558@AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> ---------- > From: Sergey A. Mukhin > To: stesin at gu.net > Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM > > >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: > A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) > A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" > A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > > A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > >> > >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > > A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate > A> here? > > In no way. What about yours? > > Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. > > >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? > > A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities > A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, > A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? > > A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable > A> question here while asking what's wrong > A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a > A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" > A> ("this" means the current state of things). > > A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, > A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET > A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot > A> live being served by RIPE directly any more; > A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) > A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. > > A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons? > > Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate > to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too. > And some would prefer be served in Moscow. > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already > given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors. > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow. > We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here > in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult > present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this message. "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote!" > > A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > > A> My conclusion: > > A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to > A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ > A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation > A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship > A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where > A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway? > > A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have > A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support > A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs > A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is > A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National > A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my > own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not. > > As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit > vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point > of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me. > > >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > >> by the fact somebody else wants ? > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you > point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is > a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by > definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. > > I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow > such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). > > >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still > >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can > >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration > >> the facts no matter if we like them or not. > > A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another > A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe > A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear > A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... > A> if there will be any. But not now, please! > > Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. > And it's done ;-) (joke) > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > > Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or > later or never! That is your choice only. > > As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. > And we try it. > > And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does > not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > A> Best regards, > A> Andrew Stesin > > A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > Kind regards, > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From amilutin at ukrpack.net Fri Feb 20 18:09:18 1998 From: amilutin at ukrpack.net (amilutin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:09:18 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802201708.TAA18137@AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> ---------- > From: Sergey A. Mukhin > To: amilutin at ukrpack.net > Cc: stesin at gu.net; lir-wg at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 4:00 PM > > > >>>>> "a" == amilutin writes: > a> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" , > a> Cc: > a> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 > > a> ---------- > >> From: Sergey A. Mukhin > >> To: stesin at gu.net > >> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > >> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM > >> > >> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: > A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) > A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" > A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > >> > A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > >> > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > >> >> > >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > >> > A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate > A> here? > >> > >> In no way. What about yours? > >> > >> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. > >> > > [sniff] > > a> Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's > a> letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this > a> message. > > a> "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out > a> opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with > a> interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list > a> are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs > a> in other European countries. Here is the vote!" > > Not sure _any_ majority is writing to this list. As well sorting > just loud voices has very little in common with normal votes > counting, doesn't it? Sure it is. However, it still reflects the general attitude. Moreover, it reflects the attitude of people who _do_ care, who are interested and who can predict the possible impact on the whole Internet community. A resposible guy of a newly emerged LIR is very unlikely to make his own jugement right away just following the discussion. On the contrary the particpants of this mailing list are from all major players in this field. You might have asked, and you once had, why we are still going with this discussion, after we had been given a reasuarance that nobody would be compelled to be serviced by a new RIR. I'm arfaid that, in order to justify the establishment of the new RIR, you will be effectively _forced_ to continue your efforts in seeking agressevely for other countries from the former USSR to be included in the service area, otherwise, you think, you are not going to receive a huge block of IP address space. Suppose you are succeseful in establishing the RIR for the former USSR area, then I am sure that no assurances on the free choice once had been given would matter any longer. > > [sniff] > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From igor at office.lucky.net Fri Feb 20 18:38:02 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:38:02 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 19, 98 11:58:52 pm Message-ID: <199802201738.TAA00713@office.lucky.net> > Yes, there seems to be something in common here. Far not everything, however. > > First, now we ( ISPs ) have a pretty simple dilemma: A) we ( I mean the _Which_ ISPs? I mean, ISPs in _what_ country? Russia? > Association ) takes the control or B) our government does it. _Which_ government? Russian? > Do you need any more comments ? Oh, yea, am I getting you right that in order to deal with your government you need to take all of FSU with you? (BTW that's what Dima Burkov said during Moscow meeting). I repeat it for the n-th time now: If you substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere, then all your arguments and viewpoints become much stronger. Maybe it's beneficial to do this at last? > > V> I want to make clear for the audience the real reason of this "independance > V> movement": MONOPOLIZATION OF IP NETWORK ADDRESSES ASSIGNMENT IN RUSSIA AND OTHER CIS > V> COUNTRIES BY ROSNIIROS (RIPN). > V> RIPN had already monopolized the domain name delegation under ".ru", and the only > V> thing this they doesn't hove at this time is control under the network addresses. > > Nope. Here you are wrong. RIPN had monopolized RU. Internic had monopolized > COM, NET, ORG and EDU. RIPE had monopolized a big block of IP address space. > God had monopolized the Universe. How far it is possible to get thinking that way ? Yeah, but God had already existed when I was born or so they say. And I had not chance to express my consent w.r.t. His existence. Do you want to create another God? ;))))) > > V> If they receive this control, can you imagine the amount of money that will be > V> "informally" squezeed from russian LIR's for the good relationship from the RIPN > V> side? I can. > > It always was a favorite habit of some kind of people -- to dream about > money in a neighbour's pocket. Was that an argument? If these money come from my pocket, then I'll probably ask what I've paid for. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From peppo at inet.it Fri Feb 20 18:34:04 1998 From: peppo at inet.it (Peppino Anselmi) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:34:04 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 19, 98 11:58:52 pm Message-ID: <199802201734.SAA07218@saturno.inet.it> > I collected more than 100 mail about your quarrels. Now I got bored by all that spamming. Senders of these mail are always the same: why don't you write each other without flooding half Europe? Thanks in advance Regards Peppino Anselmi From rom at techno.ru Fri Feb 20 18:49:45 1998 From: rom at techno.ru (Andrey Romanov) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:49:45 +0300 Subject: help Message-ID: <199802201757.UAA12123@techno.ru> From phk at critter.freebsd.dk Fri Feb 20 18:54:55 1998 From: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:54:55 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200." <199802192006.WAA29389@office.lucky.net> Message-ID: <3924.887997295@critter.freebsd.dk> I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: 1. there wasn't any agreement 2. you can force a horse to drink 3. this discussion should die. Can we either have this thread moved from the lir-wg list or dragged out behind the barn and shot right away ? Thank you! -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" From igor at office.lucky.net Fri Feb 20 19:12:36 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:12:36 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192147.AAA21458@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 20, 98 00:47:35 am Message-ID: <199802201812.UAA00816@office.lucky.net> > >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > A> of the region served? RIR creation should be > A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > A> or am I missing something? > > Quite right. The community does exist and let it decide. How will you find out that decision? By voting? Where is the voting mechanics defined? > Anyway the necessity of either RIR or RIPE office seems > to me reasonable. You missed the point. RIPE Office will be subsidiary of RIPE itself and will be dependable on RIPE. That's some guarantee of fair play. And we do not create new _essenses_ by establishing the Office, nor do we redefine regions. RIR on the other hand would be equivalent to RIPE. That's the absence of guarantee. Got it? > > >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > A> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political > A> but geographical terms for defining region borders. > > I always thought the term "geographical region" makes sense. > To pity I am not so good in geography to define something > for sure in geographical terms. Let us speak about East > Europe and, ugm, some of Asia region. More precisely, That is including Hungary, Poland, right? And what part of China would you like to be included? You see, you start with the predefined region (predefined by political rather then geographical realities) and now find it difficult to translate your definition into geographical language. > about LIRs in that region which found reasonable to > unite and get a RIR or RIPE office. Would that do? Again "RIR or RIPE Office"... Ugh... RIPE Office serving part of China? BTW if you define the influential domain of the new RIR as "everyone who likes the new RIR", you will abandon regional structure of RIRs and introduce chaos. > I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it > frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition. Are you deaf? 1. Because it's political, not geographical. 2. Because creating RIR for such a region will most definitely meet objections from most LIRs in many FSU countries (Lithuania, Eesti, Ukraine - just to name a few). How will resolve this problem? If you (or Mr.Bourkov or Mr.Platonov) are so inclined to use the bottom-up approach - then why not to start with Russia and then see - who is going to be served by such a RIR? In another letter you (and Mr.Bourkov) have answered why: You are afraid of your government and the international status of the new RIR will make you feel better. A good reason for forcing others into your boat... > A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > A> 1:1 > > It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system > was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they > sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- An extremly dangerous assumption. Is Lithuania "pro"? Is Armenia "pro"? They were not in Moscow, nevertheless. > let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if > I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries. > What a nice thing to do - just go and count LIRs! Disregarding the fact that Russia has twice as many LIRs as Ukraine does. What a democratic thought! You are late. I've already pointed out such thinking as the possible example of why the future RIR will always express Russian point of view. Thanx for demonstrating that my speculations were not pure theoretical. :( > > >> awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. > > A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > A> main ideas in a moment. > > Well, it was available for far more time than a moment. ...and still there is the discussion on what the original intentions were... > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > >> > >> I meant benefits of uniting .(point) > > A> There are some benefits and some losses... > > Sure. As in any business though. Some people call that "choice". Argh!!! So what the choice is exactly? > >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare ^^^^^^^^^^ > >> free choice for all. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter. ^^^^^^^^^ No comments. > A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know > A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > A> is more knowlegeable. > > A> Agreed? > > No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know > English. You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and > nothing will change. > You are again mistaking LIR personnel for normal Internet users. Forget it. Normal users of trolleybus need know nothing about driving. Drivers ought to know though. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From violet at rosnet.net Mon Feb 23 09:51:15 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:51:15 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: message from Peppino Anselmi on Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:34:04 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <199802230851.LAA29685@janus.rosmail.com> To put it frankly I got utterly bored of that too. Looks like a kind of scholastic dispute. Think both positions are clear enough ( for about a week already ) and no further discussion makes sense -- it would be just time wasting. Of course if somebody is still interested it might be continued. What people think about that? As for my position there left just one thing which needs to be clarified -- about the language matter. There is a trivial programming approach -- if we have to join a bit non-standard thing ( Russian language for this case ) to the whole object ( Registry ) it seems worth enough to create an interface between them ( a RIR or office ) till the incompatibility gets fixed ( everybody knows English okay ). Usually such an interface is hidden and makes no trouble for the whole thing just slightly slowing local communications. >>>>> "P" == Peppino Anselmi writes: P> To: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) P> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:34:04 +0100 (MET) P> Cc: wal at rtsnet.ru, lir-wg at ripe.net, joker at rtsnet.ru, ant at rtsnet.ru, igor at rtsnet.ru >> P> I collected more than 100 mail about your quarrels. P> Now I got bored by all that spamming. P> Senders of these mail are always the same: why don't you write each other P> without flooding half Europe? P> Thanks in advance P> Regards P> Peppino Anselmi -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Mon Feb 23 09:59:55 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:59:55 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <3924.887997295@critter.freebsd.dk> (message from Poul-Henning Kamp on Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:54:55 +0100) Message-ID: <199802230859.LAA29741@janus.rosmail.com> Having read your letter just after sending mine about the same matter. >>>>> "P" == Poul-Henning Kamp writes: P> To: igor at office.lucky.net P> cc: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin), stesin at gu.net, lir-wg at ripe.net P> <199802192006.WAA29389 at office.lucky.net> P> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:54:55 +0100 P> I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: P> 1. there wasn't any agreement As for now there likes to be no agreement possible. :-( P> 2. you can force a horse to drink I still hope nobody can. ;-) P> 3. this discussion should die. Sure! P> Can we either have this thread moved from the lir-wg list or dragged P> out behind the barn and shot right away ? No need to move. P> Thank you! Kind regards. P> -- P> Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member P> phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." P> "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 20 14:37:08 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:37:08 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: message from Igor Romanenko on Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <199802201337.QAA22823@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "I" == Igor Romanenko writes: I> To: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) I> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: stesin at gu.net, lir-wg at ripe.net >> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree I> AFAIK, RIPE does not have enough priveleges to create another RIR I> just by itself without IANA. RIPE Office would be fine as long I> as it remains just part of RIPE. But when you say "RIR" this immediately I> brings back the issue of choosing which RIR serves which region I> (RIR is a _Regional_ IR). Should I repeat once more what problems I> arise from this issue? >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. >> >> >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. >> A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. >> >> I am afraid you mistreat the approach. I> It is difficult to mistreat something not clearly defined, you know... Exactly. So again -- more details about that business are necessary. AFAIK there is a whole group busy developing details now. Cannot speak for them; however the results (IMHO!) are predictable enough -- they follow from the spirit of the original document. ( OK, "spirit" is not something real but nonetheless obvious enough ). Thus details must follow before anything real is done and they will. A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. >> >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare >> free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you >> point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is I> You are most welcome, my dear ;) Here is how: I> 1. Install the new RIR with region == FSU I> 2. Make RIPE beleive that the service is good and the new RIR I> provides sufficient service for all the region. I> 3. Make RIPE issue RIPE-nnn document which states that from now on all LIRs I> in FSU are served exclusively by the new RIR. I> Voila, you are there. When any LIR asks to be served by RIPE, I> RIPE will answer: according to RIPE-nnn you should be served by the new RIR. I> Not that I'm deadly serious about this scenario, but I do want some I> guarantee that it would not happen. >> a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by >> definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. I> Let me remind you what Captain Blood once said: "I'm offering you a free choice: I> either sign this document or I'll kill you" ;))) Anyone can get out I> any time at the price of not being LIR anymore. Is that it? ;))) >> I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow >> such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). I> ;) I did NOT say "Russia aches". ( It does not. ) I said "if it ached". >> >> Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. I> We most definitely do need RIPE. (non-joke) >> And it's done ;-) (joke) >> OK, but maybe if there grew more "us" we might need some more RIPE ? ( half a joke ;-) >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. I> What then? Then? Many in common between peoples ( of course if they have no strong feelings against it as Ukraine has ) BTW, that fact always seemed mysterious to me ;-) >> Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or >> later or never! That is your choice only. >> >> As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. >> And we try it. I> OK, go ahead and try. Nobody objects. But please, don't make the assumption Glad to hear it. :-) I> that others will be happy with your solution. (BTW, you made this assumption I> also when counting only those "contra", assuming that all others are "pro"). I> In other words: substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere in RIPE-167 I> and ask RIPE to allow LIRs not situated in Russia to be served by the I> new RIR (RRIR? Russian Regional IR) as an option. This seems to resolve I> the problem. Now, is this acceptible for you? No idea about happiness especially for somebody except my person ;-) There can be just "pro" or "contra" for given statement at given moment. Think speaking about "CIS" instead of "Russia" is a good idea. There is another point -- think if we need to create something it would be much better if it will not be just Russian. No precedences AFAIK for RIR of the only country. I cannot invent the name for it right now ( and hope there are people able doing that much better than me ) but IMHO it should _not_ have "Russian" as a part of its name. And for that matter it makes no "political" difference if it will be established not in Russia at all. That is again the technical matters and if I got Ukrainian representatives at that meeting right, Ukraine either has no wish to arrange it right now or no possibility. Who else could? >> And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does >> not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? I> The idea may be right or wrong. But if some feel that it is wrong, I> do you need to pull them with you? No need for it. And no possibility for that matter. We can just try to convince somebody if they do not refuse flatly ( as you did ). >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From amilutin at ukrpack.net Fri Feb 20 18:09:18 1998 From: amilutin at ukrpack.net (amilutin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:09:18 +0200 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802201708.TAA18137@AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> ---------- > From: Sergey A. Mukhin > To: amilutin at ukrpack.net > Cc: stesin at gu.net; lir-wg at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 4:00 PM > > > >>>>> "a" == amilutin writes: > a> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" , > a> Cc: > a> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 > > a> ---------- > >> From: Sergey A. Mukhin > >> To: stesin at gu.net > >> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > >> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM > >> > >> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: > A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) > A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" > A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net > >> > A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > >> > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > >> >> > >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > >> > A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate > A> here? > >> > >> In no way. What about yours? > >> > >> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. > >> > > [sniff] > > a> Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's > a> letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this > a> message. > > a> "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out > a> opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with > a> interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list > a> are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs > a> in other European countries. Here is the vote!" > > Not sure _any_ majority is writing to this list. As well sorting > just loud voices has very little in common with normal votes > counting, doesn't it? Sure it is. However, it still reflects the general attitude. Moreover, it reflects the attitude of people who _do_ care, who are interested and who can predict the possible impact on the whole Internet community. A resposible guy of a newly emerged LIR is very unlikely to make his own jugement right away just following the discussion. On the contrary the particpants of this mailing list are from all major players in this field. You might have asked, and you once had, why we are still going with this discussion, after we had been given a reasuarance that nobody would be compelled to be serviced by a new RIR. I'm arfaid that, in order to justify the establishment of the new RIR, you will be effectively _forced_ to continue your efforts in seeking agressevely for other countries from the former USSR to be included in the service area, otherwise, you think, you are not going to receive a huge block of IP address space. Suppose you are succeseful in establishing the RIR for the former USSR area, then I am sure that no assurances on the free choice once had been given would matter any longer. > > [sniff] > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From stesin at gu.net Fri Feb 20 15:19:19 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:19:19 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802201337.QAA22823@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > There can be just "pro" or "contra" for given statement at given > moment. Think speaking about "CIS" instead of "Russia" is a good > idea. If say in year 2000 CIS will be denounced and go to Attic, what will you do? (HINT: continents and other geographical entities are much more neutral in all respects :) > There is another point -- think if we need to create something it > would be much better if it will not be just Russian. Better for whom? and how you define what is "better" and what is "worse"? (Write a solid document, guys, we'll discuss *it* than; no sense of continuing any discussion on the topic until the new document will be out at least as a draft). > I cannot invent the name for it right now ( and hope there are > people able doing that much better than me ) but IMHO it should > _not_ have "Russian" as a part of its name. If it is done following the initiative from Russia, for Russians and Russian-speakers, without a positive contribution of anyone else -- it *is* Russian, no matter how you call it. > And for that matter > it makes no "political" difference if it will be established > not in Russia at all. That is again the technical matters and > if I got Ukrainian representatives at that meeting right, Ukraine > either has no wish to arrange it right now or no possibility. We don't feel the need of doing this. Russia(ns) do. > No need for it. And no possibility for that matter. We can just try > to convince somebody if they do not refuse flatly ( as you did ). Ok, we are waiting for a new better and solid document. Show it to us, and we'll (probably) start thinking on it... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From violet at rosnet.net Fri Feb 20 15:00:26 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:00:26 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: "amilutin@ukrpack.net"'s message of Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 Message-ID: <199802201400.RAA22853@janus.rosmail.com> >>>>> "a" == amilutin writes: a> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" , a> Cc: a> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 a> ---------- >> From: Sergey A. Mukhin >> To: stesin at gu.net >> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM >> >> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin writes: A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net >> A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. >> >> >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) >> A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate A> here? >> >> In no way. What about yours? >> >> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. >> [sniff] a> Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's a> letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this a> message. a> "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out a> opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with a> interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list a> are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs a> in other European countries. Here is the vote!" Not sure _any_ majority is writing to this list. As well sorting just loud voices has very little in common with normal votes counting, doesn't it? [sniff] -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From igor at office.lucky.net Fri Feb 20 18:38:02 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:38:02 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 19, 98 11:58:52 pm Message-ID: <199802201738.TAA00713@office.lucky.net> > Yes, there seems to be something in common here. Far not everything, however. > > First, now we ( ISPs ) have a pretty simple dilemma: A) we ( I mean the _Which_ ISPs? I mean, ISPs in _what_ country? Russia? > Association ) takes the control or B) our government does it. _Which_ government? Russian? > Do you need any more comments ? Oh, yea, am I getting you right that in order to deal with your government you need to take all of FSU with you? (BTW that's what Dima Burkov said during Moscow meeting). I repeat it for the n-th time now: If you substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere, then all your arguments and viewpoints become much stronger. Maybe it's beneficial to do this at last? > > V> I want to make clear for the audience the real reason of this "independance > V> movement": MONOPOLIZATION OF IP NETWORK ADDRESSES ASSIGNMENT IN RUSSIA AND OTHER CIS > V> COUNTRIES BY ROSNIIROS (RIPN). > V> RIPN had already monopolized the domain name delegation under ".ru", and the only > V> thing this they doesn't hove at this time is control under the network addresses. > > Nope. Here you are wrong. RIPN had monopolized RU. Internic had monopolized > COM, NET, ORG and EDU. RIPE had monopolized a big block of IP address space. > God had monopolized the Universe. How far it is possible to get thinking that way ? Yeah, but God had already existed when I was born or so they say. And I had not chance to express my consent w.r.t. His existence. Do you want to create another God? ;))))) > > V> If they receive this control, can you imagine the amount of money that will be > V> "informally" squezeed from russian LIR's for the good relationship from the RIPN > V> side? I can. > > It always was a favorite habit of some kind of people -- to dream about > money in a neighbour's pocket. Was that an argument? If these money come from my pocket, then I'll probably ask what I've paid for. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From phk at critter.freebsd.dk Fri Feb 20 18:54:55 1998 From: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:54:55 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200." <199802192006.WAA29389@office.lucky.net> Message-ID: <3924.887997295@critter.freebsd.dk> I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: 1. there wasn't any agreement 2. you can force a horse to drink 3. this discussion should die. Can we either have this thread moved from the lir-wg list or dragged out behind the barn and shot right away ? Thank you! -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" From violet at rosnet.net Mon Feb 23 09:51:15 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:51:15 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: message from Peppino Anselmi on Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:34:04 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <199802230851.LAA29685@janus.rosmail.com> To put it frankly I got utterly bored of that too. Looks like a kind of scholastic dispute. Think both positions are clear enough ( for about a week already ) and no further discussion makes sense -- it would be just time wasting. Of course if somebody is still interested it might be continued. What people think about that? As for my position there left just one thing which needs to be clarified -- about the language matter. There is a trivial programming approach -- if we have to join a bit non-standard thing ( Russian language for this case ) to the whole object ( Registry ) it seems worth enough to create an interface between them ( a RIR or office ) till the incompatibility gets fixed ( everybody knows English okay ). Usually such an interface is hidden and makes no trouble for the whole thing just slightly slowing local communications. >>>>> "P" == Peppino Anselmi writes: P> To: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) P> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:34:04 +0100 (MET) P> Cc: wal at rtsnet.ru, lir-wg at ripe.net, joker at rtsnet.ru, ant at rtsnet.ru, igor at rtsnet.ru >> P> I collected more than 100 mail about your quarrels. P> Now I got bored by all that spamming. P> Senders of these mail are always the same: why don't you write each other P> without flooding half Europe? P> Thanks in advance P> Regards P> Peppino Anselmi -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From stesin at gu.net Fri Feb 20 15:01:01 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:01:01 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192147.AAA21458@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > A> of the region served? RIR creation should be > A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > A> or am I missing something? > > Quite right. The community does exist ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Would you mind providing a proof of validity for this statement? [... region definition ...] > I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it > frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition. I don't like the definition above because we live today, looking for tomorrow, and "fSU" is the term from yesterday ("historical"). Who cares today about yesteday' mess? > A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > A> 1:1 > > It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What a nice news! ;) If say I wasn't present there physically, what the Decision' text could look like? Note: the text of the projected Decision of Moscow meeting wasn't published electronicaly and open for discussion! > was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they > sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- > let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if > I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries. Neither you nor me didn't get things right, because the documents (both ripe-167 and the Decision) are *very* unclear at this point and who knows where truth might be? > A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > A> main ideas in a moment. > > Well, it was available for far more time than a moment. ... and nobody cared starting polishing it until Moscow meeting. And nobody even cared to translate it to Russian so far. > A> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain > A> at this point. > > Maybe. For that case there are its authors able to clarify details. I'd like to see *the* document which is independent of any personalities (who may or may not change their opinions in time) and spoken opinions. [...] > >> If you suppose uniting of > >> everybody but us, *You* said this; I didn't. > >> that sounds a bit odd, does not it? [...] > >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > >> free choice for all. > > A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where > A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter. Ghmm. > >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know > A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > A> is more knowlegeable. > > A> Agreed? > > No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know > English. *This* statement of yours is plain wrong. Getting connected doesn't nessesary mean one should go learn English; > You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and > nothing will change. ... but those who serves people' connections *must* know English otherwise how can they perform their job? Please don't mix customer and provider, also LIR isn't just average provider; it's the next level of skills and experience, in general. > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From igor at office.lucky.net Fri Feb 20 19:12:36 1998 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:12:36 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192147.AAA21458@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 20, 98 00:47:35 am Message-ID: <199802201812.UAA00816@office.lucky.net> > >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > A> of the region served? RIR creation should be > A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > A> or am I missing something? > > Quite right. The community does exist and let it decide. How will you find out that decision? By voting? Where is the voting mechanics defined? > Anyway the necessity of either RIR or RIPE office seems > to me reasonable. You missed the point. RIPE Office will be subsidiary of RIPE itself and will be dependable on RIPE. That's some guarantee of fair play. And we do not create new _essenses_ by establishing the Office, nor do we redefine regions. RIR on the other hand would be equivalent to RIPE. That's the absence of guarantee. Got it? > > >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > A> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political > A> but geographical terms for defining region borders. > > I always thought the term "geographical region" makes sense. > To pity I am not so good in geography to define something > for sure in geographical terms. Let us speak about East > Europe and, ugm, some of Asia region. More precisely, That is including Hungary, Poland, right? And what part of China would you like to be included? You see, you start with the predefined region (predefined by political rather then geographical realities) and now find it difficult to translate your definition into geographical language. > about LIRs in that region which found reasonable to > unite and get a RIR or RIPE office. Would that do? Again "RIR or RIPE Office"... Ugh... RIPE Office serving part of China? BTW if you define the influential domain of the new RIR as "everyone who likes the new RIR", you will abandon regional structure of RIRs and introduce chaos. > I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it > frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition. Are you deaf? 1. Because it's political, not geographical. 2. Because creating RIR for such a region will most definitely meet objections from most LIRs in many FSU countries (Lithuania, Eesti, Ukraine - just to name a few). How will resolve this problem? If you (or Mr.Bourkov or Mr.Platonov) are so inclined to use the bottom-up approach - then why not to start with Russia and then see - who is going to be served by such a RIR? In another letter you (and Mr.Bourkov) have answered why: You are afraid of your government and the international status of the new RIR will make you feel better. A good reason for forcing others into your boat... > A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > A> 1:1 > > It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system > was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they > sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- An extremly dangerous assumption. Is Lithuania "pro"? Is Armenia "pro"? They were not in Moscow, nevertheless. > let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if > I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries. > What a nice thing to do - just go and count LIRs! Disregarding the fact that Russia has twice as many LIRs as Ukraine does. What a democratic thought! You are late. I've already pointed out such thinking as the possible example of why the future RIR will always express Russian point of view. Thanx for demonstrating that my speculations were not pure theoretical. :( > > >> awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. > > A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > A> main ideas in a moment. > > Well, it was available for far more time than a moment. ...and still there is the discussion on what the original intentions were... > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > >> > >> I meant benefits of uniting .(point) > > A> There are some benefits and some losses... > > Sure. As in any business though. Some people call that "choice". Argh!!! So what the choice is exactly? > >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare ^^^^^^^^^^ > >> free choice for all. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter. ^^^^^^^^^ No comments. > A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know > A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > A> is more knowlegeable. > > A> Agreed? > > No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know > English. You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and > nothing will change. > You are again mistaking LIR personnel for normal Internet users. Forget it. Normal users of trolleybus need know nothing about driving. Drivers ought to know though. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" From peppo at inet.it Fri Feb 20 18:34:04 1998 From: peppo at inet.it (Peppino Anselmi) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:34:04 +0100 (MET) Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> from "Sergey A. Mukhin" at Feb 19, 98 11:58:52 pm Message-ID: <199802201734.SAA07218@saturno.inet.it> > I collected more than 100 mail about your quarrels. Now I got bored by all that spamming. Senders of these mail are always the same: why don't you write each other without flooding half Europe? Thanks in advance Regards Peppino Anselmi From violet at rosnet.net Mon Feb 23 09:59:55 1998 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:59:55 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <3924.887997295@critter.freebsd.dk> (message from Poul-Henning Kamp on Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:54:55 +0100) Message-ID: <199802230859.LAA29741@janus.rosmail.com> Having read your letter just after sending mine about the same matter. >>>>> "P" == Poul-Henning Kamp writes: P> To: igor at office.lucky.net P> cc: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin), stesin at gu.net, lir-wg at ripe.net P> <199802192006.WAA29389 at office.lucky.net> P> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:54:55 +0100 P> I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: P> 1. there wasn't any agreement As for now there likes to be no agreement possible. :-( P> 2. you can force a horse to drink I still hope nobody can. ;-) P> 3. this discussion should die. Sure! P> Can we either have this thread moved from the lir-wg list or dragged P> out behind the barn and shot right away ? No need to move. P> Thank you! Kind regards. P> -- P> Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member P> phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." P> "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From edd at aic.net Mon Feb 23 13:43:20 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:43:20 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <3924.887997295@critter.freebsd.dk> from "phk@critter.freebsd.dk" at Feb 20, 98 06:54:55 pm Message-ID: <199802231243.QAA04612@aic.net> > > > I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: > > 1. there wasn't any agreement > 2. you can force a horse to drink > 3. this discussion should die. discussion or we... the latter i presume... From edd at aic.net Mon Feb 23 13:35:46 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:35:46 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "stesin@gu.net" at Feb 20, 98 04:01:01 pm Message-ID: <199802231235.QAA04563@aic.net> PLEASE take this discussion out of RIPE list!!! Please!!! It gets so boring! Almost everyone concerned expressed their/his/her opinions, so please chat privately... Poor non-FSU'ers... Seems now I understand why we aren't being admitted to the EU :) > On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > > >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE From dburk at comstar.ru Mon Feb 23 13:37:25 1998 From: dburk at comstar.ru (Dmitri Bourkov) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:37:25 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802231237.PAA24242@bsd.post.comstar.ru> -----Original Message----- From: Igor Romanenko > >> Association ) takes the control or B) our government does it. > >_Which_ government? Russian? > >> Do you need any more comments ? > >Oh, yea, am I getting you right that in order to deal with your government >you need to take all of FSU with you? (BTW that's what Dima Burkov said >during Moscow meeting). Please, stop interpretation of my words. :-) From BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu Mon Feb 23 14:25:00 1998 From: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu (Berislav Todorovic) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:25 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! Message-ID: >> To put it frankly I got utterly bored of that too. Looks like >> a kind of scholastic dispute. >> >> Of course if somebody is still interested it might be continued. >> What people think about that? I'd suggest you to create a local mailing list somewhere in Russia, publish its location and subscription info here on the LIR-WG and transfer all this discussion there. The list should be opened to anyone interested. I hope you'll achieve some solution acceptable for everyone. Best regards, Beri .-------. | --+-- | Berislav Todorovic, B.Sc.E.E. | E-mail: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu | /|\ Hostmaster of the YU TLD | |-(-+-)-| School of Electrical Engineering | Phone: (+381-11) 3221-419 | \|/ Bulevar Revolucije 73 | 3370-106 | --+-- | 11000 Belgrade SERBIA, YUGOSLAVIA | Fax: (+381-11) 3248-681 `-------' -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dburk at comstar.ru Mon Feb 23 14:29:36 1998 From: dburk at comstar.ru (Dmitri Bourkov) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:29:36 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting Message-ID: <199802231329.QAA28627@bsd.post.comstar.ru> -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Stesin To: Sergey A. Mukhin > Ok, we are waiting for a new better and solid document. > Show it to us, and we'll (probably) start thinking > on it... > Andrey, but you can agree that RIPE office in Moscow will be useful in any case. I think that it is clear that RIPN provides services in Moscow and we need it. Discussion about RIR should be continued, but it should not stop current work. From ish at east.ru Mon Feb 23 14:50:48 1998 From: ish at east.ru (Ilya Shulman) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:50:48 +0300 Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! Message-ID: <199802231344.QAA10374@ns.east.ru> -----Original Message----- From: Berislav Todorovic To: violet at rosnet.net Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net Date: 23 FEWRALQ 1998 G. 16:32 Subject: Re: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! >I'd suggest you to create a local mailing list somewhere in Russia, >publish its location and subscription info here on the LIR-WG and >transfer all this discussion there. The list should be opened to >anyone interested. I hope you'll achieve some solution acceptable >for everyone. There is such list in local-ir at ripn.net but it is in russian. So there are little chance if any that somebody from Europe will read this list. Though I understand that some of you may count this flow as "spam", some - as unnecessary waste of bandwidth. But on the other hand I think that it will be better if RIPE officials and LIR in Europe know the situation with ripe-167 project. And will be able to stop the development of RIR in Russia if need be. Also, I think that this subject has some relation with RIPE and Internet development. However, this list is under RIPE authority depends on them ;) Just my 2 roubles ;) ish ------ Ilya Shulman ish at east.ru +7-095-956-4951 ISH-RIPN East Connection ISP, Moscow, Russia. http://www.east.ru From stesin at gu.net Mon Feb 23 14:51:07 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:51:07 +0200 (EET) Subject: Funds issue (was: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow In-Reply-To: <199802231329.QAA28627@bsd.post.comstar.ru> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Dmitri Bourkov wrote: > > Ok, we are waiting for a new better and solid document. > > Show it to us, and we'll (probably) start thinking > > on it... > > > > Andrey, > but you can agree that RIPE office in Moscow will be useful in any case. As for me, I'm going to let RIPE themselves decide where to place their office(s)... as soon as it's RIPE not someone else who uses RIPE's name, *and* the amount of funds taken from contributor's vallet won't increase without a real need for it. > I think that it is clear that RIPN provides services in Moscow and we need it. > No problem. > Discussion about RIR should be continued, but it should not stop current work. > Let's stop this discussion here until a new document will be prepared and published with all the doubtful issues cleared. Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From goo at botik.lucky.net Mon Feb 23 16:49:39 1998 From: goo at botik.lucky.net (Sergey Gulchuck) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:49:39 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199802231344.QAA10374@ns.east.ru> from "Ilya Shulman" at Feb 23, 98 04:50:48 pm Message-ID: <199802231549.RAA05819@botik.lucky.net> I'm sure that closing this discussion would be dangerous, because during the Moscow meeting it have been said that silence would be regarded as consent. I'd like to see an official statement from RIPE that RIPE-167 is suspended until the new document will be developed. Regards, Sergey Gulchuck Kyiv, Ukraine From stesin at gu.net Mon Feb 23 17:30:11 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:30:11 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > First, now we ( ISPs ) have a pretty simple dilemma: A) we ( I mean the > Association ) takes the control or B) our government does it. > Do you need any more comments ? Yep. What has Ukraine (and ISP from here) to do with your, Russian goverment? We have ours, thank you. > Nope. Here you are wrong. RIPN had monopolized RU. Internic had monopolized > COM, NET, ORG and EDU. RIPE had monopolized a big block of IP address space. > God had monopolized the Universe. How far it is possible to get thinking that way ? We can and agree to live with the current state of affairs. Why try to repair something not recognized as "broken" by anyone but you? P.S. Please take my sincere apologies, I already decided to stop this discussion here, but couldn't resist, this message from Moscow was so bright and remarkably clear. :) Now I'm shutting up promptly... :)) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From haug at seicom.net Mon Feb 23 19:14:10 1998 From: haug at seicom.net (Winfried Haug) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:14:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802231329.QAA28627@bsd.post.comstar.ru> from Dmitri Bourkov at "Feb 23, 98 04:29:36 pm" Message-ID: <199802231814.TAA09447@hq.seicom.net> Hello.. the discussion is now going to become boring. Sorry to say that, but i see two parties, fighting for their side, but the real problem is not a technical problem but a political one. Ripe and the community could solve problems of type nr. (1) but not of nr. (2) > Andrey, > but you can agree that RIPE office in Moscow will be useful in any case. hmm, why ? what can *only* be done in moscow and *not* in amsterdam. If we start this, than other countries want also an office. Does this really make sense ? It leads into a distribution of man power and knowledge. I cant see any justification to open an office in moscow without opening one in madrid/paris/roma/vienna etc... Please stop this discussion and we can continue if anybody provides the communitiy with *good* arguments, why we should open an office in moscow. Please no discussion about the "internet-language" english. This is a fact. And dont come up with the timezones... we have to work sometimes with internic. The time-difference between us and the usa is higher than those between amsterdam and moscow.... just my 0,02$ Winfried -- Winfried Haug | SEICOM.DE & SCHWABEN.DE | Tel. +49 7121 9770- 0 Laiblinsplatz 12 | Internet+ISDN access & consulting | Fax. +49 7121 9770-19 72793 Pfullingen | Access in STGT + RT + TUE + BB + LB | Rack +49 7127 989-X haug at schwaben.net| 150*ISDN (64kb/X.75) / 100 * K56flex | Rack +49 711 9675-X haug at seicom.net |SAP-OSS * FTP * TELNET * NETNEWS * IRC | Rack +49 7121 709-X * 10 MBit DE-CIX * 2 MBit INXS * 5 MBit ecrc/ebone * 2 Mbit Belwue * 2 Mbit WIN From edd at aic.net Mon Feb 23 13:43:20 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:43:20 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <3924.887997295@critter.freebsd.dk> from "phk@critter.freebsd.dk" at Feb 20, 98 06:54:55 pm Message-ID: <199802231243.QAA04612@aic.net> > > > I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: > > 1. there wasn't any agreement > 2. you can force a horse to drink > 3. this discussion should die. discussion or we... the latter i presume... From edd at aic.net Mon Feb 23 13:35:46 1998 From: edd at aic.net (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:35:46 +0400 (GMT) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: from "stesin@gu.net" at Feb 20, 98 04:01:01 pm Message-ID: <199802231235.QAA04563@aic.net> PLEASE take this discussion out of RIPE list!!! Please!!! It gets so boring! Almost everyone concerned expressed their/his/her opinions, so please chat privately... Poor non-FSU'ers... Seems now I understand why we aren't being admitted to the EU :) > On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > > >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE From haug at seicom.net Mon Feb 23 19:14:10 1998 From: haug at seicom.net (Winfried Haug) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:14:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802231329.QAA28627@bsd.post.comstar.ru> from Dmitri Bourkov at "Feb 23, 98 04:29:36 pm" Message-ID: <199802231814.TAA09447@hq.seicom.net> Hello.. the discussion is now going to become boring. Sorry to say that, but i see two parties, fighting for their side, but the real problem is not a technical problem but a political one. Ripe and the community could solve problems of type nr. (1) but not of nr. (2) > Andrey, > but you can agree that RIPE office in Moscow will be useful in any case. hmm, why ? what can *only* be done in moscow and *not* in amsterdam. If we start this, than other countries want also an office. Does this really make sense ? It leads into a distribution of man power and knowledge. I cant see any justification to open an office in moscow without opening one in madrid/paris/roma/vienna etc... Please stop this discussion and we can continue if anybody provides the communitiy with *good* arguments, why we should open an office in moscow. Please no discussion about the "internet-language" english. This is a fact. And dont come up with the timezones... we have to work sometimes with internic. The time-difference between us and the usa is higher than those between amsterdam and moscow.... just my 0,02$ Winfried -- Winfried Haug | SEICOM.DE & SCHWABEN.DE | Tel. +49 7121 9770- 0 Laiblinsplatz 12 | Internet+ISDN access & consulting | Fax. +49 7121 9770-19 72793 Pfullingen | Access in STGT + RT + TUE + BB + LB | Rack +49 7127 989-X haug at schwaben.net| 150*ISDN (64kb/X.75) / 100 * K56flex | Rack +49 711 9675-X haug at seicom.net |SAP-OSS * FTP * TELNET * NETNEWS * IRC | Rack +49 7121 709-X * 10 MBit DE-CIX * 2 MBit INXS * 5 MBit ecrc/ebone * 2 Mbit Belwue * 2 Mbit WIN From stesin at gu.net Mon Feb 23 14:51:07 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:51:07 +0200 (EET) Subject: Funds issue (was: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow In-Reply-To: <199802231329.QAA28627@bsd.post.comstar.ru> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Dmitri Bourkov wrote: > > Ok, we are waiting for a new better and solid document. > > Show it to us, and we'll (probably) start thinking > > on it... > > > > Andrey, > but you can agree that RIPE office in Moscow will be useful in any case. As for me, I'm going to let RIPE themselves decide where to place their office(s)... as soon as it's RIPE not someone else who uses RIPE's name, *and* the amount of funds taken from contributor's vallet won't increase without a real need for it. > I think that it is clear that RIPN provides services in Moscow and we need it. > No problem. > Discussion about RIR should be continued, but it should not stop current work. > Let's stop this discussion here until a new document will be prepared and published with all the doubtful issues cleared. Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From stesin at gu.net Mon Feb 23 17:30:11 1998 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:30:11 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting In-Reply-To: <199802192058.XAA21382@janus.rosmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > First, now we ( ISPs ) have a pretty simple dilemma: A) we ( I mean the > Association ) takes the control or B) our government does it. > Do you need any more comments ? Yep. What has Ukraine (and ISP from here) to do with your, Russian goverment? We have ours, thank you. > Nope. Here you are wrong. RIPN had monopolized RU. Internic had monopolized > COM, NET, ORG and EDU. RIPE had monopolized a big block of IP address space. > God had monopolized the Universe. How far it is possible to get thinking that way ? We can and agree to live with the current state of affairs. Why try to repair something not recognized as "broken" by anyone but you? P.S. Please take my sincere apologies, I already decided to stop this discussion here, but couldn't resist, this message from Moscow was so bright and remarkably clear. :) Now I'm shutting up promptly... :)) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From goo at botik.lucky.net Mon Feb 23 16:49:39 1998 From: goo at botik.lucky.net (Sergey Gulchuck) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:49:39 +0200 (EET) Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199802231344.QAA10374@ns.east.ru> from "Ilya Shulman" at Feb 23, 98 04:50:48 pm Message-ID: <199802231549.RAA05819@botik.lucky.net> I'm sure that closing this discussion would be dangerous, because during the Moscow meeting it have been said that silence would be regarded as consent. I'd like to see an official statement from RIPE that RIPE-167 is suspended until the new document will be developed. Regards, Sergey Gulchuck Kyiv, Ukraine From phk at critter.freebsd.dk Tue Feb 24 13:32:43 1998 From: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:32:43 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:49:39 +0200." <199802231549.RAA05819@botik.lucky.net> Message-ID: <1478.888323563@critter.freebsd.dk> In message <199802231549.RAA05819 at botik.lucky.net>, Sergey Gulchuck writes: > > >I'm sure that closing this discussion would be dangerous, because >during the Moscow meeting it have been said that silence would be >regarded as consent. Well, I don't think anybody has heard any silence here for the last couple of weeks :-( Take this discussion of the lir-list ! -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" From BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu Tue Feb 24 16:57:00 1998 From: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu (Berislav Todorovic) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:57 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! Message-ID: >> I'm sure that closing this discussion would be dangerous, because >> during the Moscow meeting it have been said that silence would be >> regarded as consent. To create a separate Internet registry for a region, a consensus among interested parties in the region has to be achieved. The discussion on this list showed everything except consensus. Most discutants were from former Soviet republics (applogies if anyone will find himself/herself offended by this remark, but it is a fact), while most people from this list, located on the West side of the Russian border, expressed none or very small interest to take part in the discussion. Fist off, the point of my previous proposal to create a local mailing list in Russia (I've heard it exists) is not to stress out that this discussion is unuseful. On the contrary ... it IS useful, but it is being run at the WRONG PLACE! Secondly, it came to the point where consensus could not be reached. Since I'm living in a country whose destiny much resembles to the destiny of the former Soviet Union, my personal point of view of the further steps would be: * Move the discussion from the LIR-WG to the local mailng list. * Create a local working group, consisting of representatives of all interested parties. * Organize a public forum, meeting - either live or electronic. * Try to reach consensus within the working group. * Don't publish anything out of the local working group scope until there is a strong consensus among all (or, at least, among the majority of) interested parties. * Of course - someone will always stay unhappy, but that's everyday life ... * If the consensus among all (or significant majority of) interested parties can not be reached, forget the whole idea! It will be more like an awful marriage, than a good RIR! * If and when consensus is reached - publish the proposal to the RIPE, IANA and other interested parties and mailing lists. * To the rest of the world, all interested parties MUST show mutual consensus clearly. After it has been reached, noone MUST NOT express anything against the statements, built in the draft proposal. Good luck on the future work on the Russian RIR! ;-) Best regards, Beri .-------. | --+-- | Berislav Todorovic, B.Sc.E.E. | E-mail: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu | /|\ Hostmaster of the YU TLD | |-(-+-)-| School of Electrical Engineering | Phone: (+381-11) 3221-419 | \|/ Bulevar Revolucije 73 | 3370-106 | --+-- | 11000 Belgrade SERBIA, YUGOSLAVIA | Fax: (+381-11) 3248-681 `-------' -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bridge at ip-plus.net Wed Feb 25 15:41:45 1998 From: bridge at ip-plus.net (philip bridge) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:41:45 +0100 Subject: Scaling the LIR Hierarchy Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980225154145.02fdcfdc@164.128.36.34> Is anybody else starting to see the same scaling problem we are with the IR-LIR-Enduser hierarchy? We see two things happening: we ourselves are probably the largest ISP in Switzerland, which means we are getting a lot of bottom-tier ISPs as customers. At the same time, the VSE idea is catching on, so our ISP customers are themselves signing up lots of end-users who only need (and are prepared to accept) /27 or smaller assignments. This is causing us lots of problems, because our own LIR hostmaster team is dimensioned to assess requests from end-users connecting directly to our own network. Now in the past month I have seen 4 four requests from ISP customers for /24 ranges that should be assigned to their own VSE customers, but we have to reject the requests and ask the ISPs to re-submit 8 or so individual requests for each VSE end-user, which we have to vet. What makes this worse is that the ISPs are not set up to collect the usual info required for an assessment. It is also bloating our internal routing tables, and while not yet a problem, I would give it two years before it does become a problem. There are some ways we can improve the situation, but most of them involve discouraging ISPs from making these assignments (for example, we could charge prohibitivly for 'LIR' services if the end-user is not our customer, or we could suggest that ISPs wanting more than (say) a /22 for VSE customers should become a LIR itself). But I have to say that in most cases these assigments are probably justified - end-users really are buying into the idea of classless VSE assignments - and I think this community should do all in it's power to make it *easier* to make VSE assignments. On the other hand, we as a LIR simply cannot handle the rush of requests from end-users that are not our own customers... My suggestion: we need another tier in the IR-LIR-Enduser hierarchy. I suggest that LIRs be able to delegate a small range of space to a sub-LIR. For the sake of argument, this could be a /24, and one could stipulate that only VSE assignments can be made from this range. Of course, the assigning LIR is still held responsible for the correct assignment of this space, and could employ many/all of the techniques an IR itself uses to manage the activites of LIRs. The sub-LIR is responsible for assessment and assignment, and registration in the DB. The advantage is that this model is scalable, since it delegates much of the LIR function closer to the end-user. It also removes the motivation for small ISPs to become LIRs themselves and receive a perhaps unjustifiable large /19 allocation. A further advantage is that is improves route aggregation within the LIR's own internal routing system. Feedback? I am hurridly donning my asbestos suit in anticipation of the forthcoming blast of flames ;-) Phil ______________________________________________________________ Philip Bridge ++41 31 688 8262 bridge at ip-plus.net www.ip-plus.ch PGP: DE78 06B7 ACDB CB56 CE88 6165 A73F B703 From phk at critter.freebsd.dk Tue Feb 24 13:32:43 1998 From: phk at critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:32:43 +0100 Subject: [ripe-167] ENOUGH!!!!!! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:49:39 +0200." <199802231549.RAA05819@botik.lucky.net> Message-ID: <1478.888323563@critter.freebsd.dk> In message <199802231549.RAA05819 at botik.lucky.net>, Sergey Gulchuck writes: > > >I'm sure that closing this discussion would be dangerous, because >during the Moscow meeting it have been said that silence would be >regarded as consent. Well, I don't think anybody has heard any silence here for the last couple of weeks :-( Take this discussion of the lir-list ! -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk at FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" From bridge at ip-plus.net Wed Feb 25 15:41:45 1998 From: bridge at ip-plus.net (philip bridge) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:41:45 +0100 Subject: Scaling the LIR Hierarchy Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980225154145.02fdcfdc@164.128.36.34> Is anybody else starting to see the same scaling problem we are with the IR-LIR-Enduser hierarchy? We see two things happening: we ourselves are probably the largest ISP in Switzerland, which means we are getting a lot of bottom-tier ISPs as customers. At the same time, the VSE idea is catching on, so our ISP customers are themselves signing up lots of end-users who only need (and are prepared to accept) /27 or smaller assignments. This is causing us lots of problems, because our own LIR hostmaster team is dimensioned to assess requests from end-users connecting directly to our own network. Now in the past month I have seen 4 four requests from ISP customers for /24 ranges that should be assigned to their own VSE customers, but we have to reject the requests and ask the ISPs to re-submit 8 or so individual requests for each VSE end-user, which we have to vet. What makes this worse is that the ISPs are not set up to collect the usual info required for an assessment. It is also bloating our internal routing tables, and while not yet a problem, I would give it two years before it does become a problem. There are some ways we can improve the situation, but most of them involve discouraging ISPs from making these assignments (for example, we could charge prohibitivly for 'LIR' services if the end-user is not our customer, or we could suggest that ISPs wanting more than (say) a /22 for VSE customers should become a LIR itself). But I have to say that in most cases these assigments are probably justified - end-users really are buying into the idea of classless VSE assignments - and I think this community should do all in it's power to make it *easier* to make VSE assignments. On the other hand, we as a LIR simply cannot handle the rush of requests from end-users that are not our own customers... My suggestion: we need another tier in the IR-LIR-Enduser hierarchy. I suggest that LIRs be able to delegate a small range of space to a sub-LIR. For the sake of argument, this could be a /24, and one could stipulate that only VSE assignments can be made from this range. Of course, the assigning LIR is still held responsible for the correct assignment of this space, and could employ many/all of the techniques an IR itself uses to manage the activites of LIRs. The sub-LIR is responsible for assessment and assignment, and registration in the DB. The advantage is that this model is scalable, since it delegates much of the LIR function closer to the end-user. It also removes the motivation for small ISPs to become LIRs themselves and receive a perhaps unjustifiable large /19 allocation. A further advantage is that is improves route aggregation within the LIR's own internal routing system. Feedback? I am hurridly donning my asbestos suit in anticipation of the forthcoming blast of flames ;-) Phil ______________________________________________________________ Philip Bridge ++41 31 688 8262 bridge at ip-plus.net www.ip-plus.ch PGP: DE78 06B7 ACDB CB56 CE88 6165 A73F B703