From John.Crain at ripe.net Tue Jun 11 13:30:37 1996 From: John.Crain at ripe.net (John LeRoy Crain) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 13:30:37 +0200 Subject: Minutes of RIPE 24 Local IR working group. Message-ID: <9606111130.AA22088@ncc.ripe.net> Here are the minutes of the last workgroup. Better late than never :-) Kind regards, John Crain RIPE NCC -------------------- RIPE 24 (Berlin) Local IR working group Chair: Mike Norris Scribe: John Crain There were 62 people present. 1. Preliminaries 1.1 The minute-taker/Scibe was chosen. 1.2 The agenda was agreed upon. 2. RIPE 23 2.1 There were no comments on the minutes. 2.2 Actions outstanding; 21.3 To draft a recommendation on charging by local IRs until September (D. Karrenberg, M. Norris) DONE 23.6 To organise a Local IR workshop in conjunction with RIPE 24 (RIPE NCC) DONE 23.7 To include a paragraph in ripe-104++ on procedures for the reverse delegation of partially assigned class B networks. (RIPE NCC) DONE 3. reports from registries 3.1 Report from regional registry RIPE NCC, Mike Norris introduced the quarterly report. He asked if it could be moved to the plenary as it will be presented there anyway. Nobody objected. 3.2 There were no reports or "war stories" from other registries. 3.3 There were no reports from other regional registries. 4. IP Address Space Assignment Procedures 4.1 RIPE 104 Blasco Bonito mentioned that it was difficult to explain the reasons for the static-dialup policies. He asked if this could be explained more concisely in ripe-104++. Mike Norris stressed that a major point in 104++ is that an assignment is only valid so long as the criteria on which the assignment was based are still valid. He also announced that inaddr procedures (RIPE-105) have also been incorporated into RIPE-104++(Draft version). Mike Norris stressed that RIPE-104++ was not yet complete. Action on NCC and Editorial Comittee to complete ripe-104++ and circulate. 4.2 Supporting documentation. Mike Norris announced the combination of RIPE-128 and -129 in the draft document RIPE-128++. Commented that this was definately needed and quickly. This document had been discussed in the LIR workshop and some problems had been noted. Especially the points concerning end-user use of the document. He suggested that the document be discussed for a short period and then accepted as soon as possible. Mike Norris asked for comments on the documents: Yves Devillers asked when would the documents be ready for formal adoption. The document should be ready for RIPE 25 in the third quarter of 1996. The previous RIPE-104++ is in use and the first four sections have been approved at RIPE 23, the rest should be approved at RIPE 25. There were concerns about running on a "Draft document". Daniel Karrenberg & Rob Blokzijl stated that at the moment it is the best document we have. Action on NCC to produce new forms in May. 5. Charging by Local Internet Registries 5.1 RIPE NCC Charging model, This is in the RIPE NCC Report and will be left until the plenary. 5.2 Paper by Karrenberg and Norris Mike Norris presented a draft sheet concerning charging behaviour for LIR's. The document identifies name- and address-space as finite resources with no intrinsic value. Recommendations for registries are; Registries should publish there operating procedures, details of the services they offer, including tariffs etc and the fact that they do not sell name- or address-space as such. Special case registries should publish policies and be open. This is the best way to stop monopoly complaints. Daniel Karrenberg stated that the content of the document is already the consesus but now needed writing down. Blasco Bonito stated that he agrees with the content but would like to see lobbying of the Top Level Domain administrators on this document. The document will be passed on to the DNS-wg and posted to the TLD's known to the RIPE NCC. It will also be posted on a TLD mailing list. Various persons had problems with some of the wording, especially those sections concerning, consencus and profits and the phrase "nor be seen to generate". There was some discussion as to if a domain-name holder can resell that name. This falls outside the scope of the document and is a matter of local rules. The document only concerns the behaviour of LIR's. The document tries to document how a registry should behave not at the next level. Mike Norris summed up this by saying that the document is about charging for services and not for name- or address-space. It is meant to be a summary of expected behaviour. The document will be passed on to the DNS wg with idea of adoption in the plenary. Action on M. Norris to circulate paper to TLD registries. 6. Training 6.1 RIPE Training courses There have been three since RIPE-23 and three more are planned. The training courses have been recieving positive feedback. Recommendations have been made for seperating the training into different categories\levels. There are also new ideas for training course. 7. Input/Output with other working groups Database-wg 104++ is already there. Routing-wg Improving aggregation by reclamation is it worth while? DNS-wg "Charging by Local Internet registries" document. Netnews-wg nothing 8. Global Registry Coordination Daniel Karrenberg: There has been an increase in phone calls from US NOC,s because of wrong or misleading info in the Internic database.Do others have problems? Should we ask the internic to remove all info? There was general consencus to ask the Internic to remove the data. The question was raised " Should the AS objects also be removed?". Action on D. Karrenberg to raise the question with Internic. Because some US providers insist that your AS is registered in the database before they will peer with you, we shouldn't ask for these to be removed. 9. Reverse Domains Mike Norris: The procedures are now in RIPE-104++. Anything to report? Daniel Karrenberg stated that the situation with inaddr.arpa was "not that bad". 10. AOB Carol Orange announced that the Quartely reports were outside From ncc at ripe.net Fri Jun 14 17:49:26 1996 From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Staff) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:49:26 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9606141549.AA19016@ncc.ripe.net> Dear RIPE Community, Since the Local IR mailing list is a closed list and only open for contributing registries, it was requested to create a new mailing list for the Local IR Working Group that is open to everyone interested. This new mailing list is called Below you find a short summary to clarify the difference between these two lists: local-ir at ripe.net - All issues that only concern contributing Local IR's are send to this list - is a CLOSED list, only open to contributing Local IR's - Subscription is not managed by majordomo, but maintained manually by the RIPE NCC - All contributing LIR's are automatically subscribed lir-wg at ripe.net: - All issues related to the LIR Working Group like Meeting Agendas, document revisions and such are sent to this list - All LIR Working Group discussions take place on this list - is an OPEN list, everyone can subscribe - Subscription is managed by majordomo - is automatically subscribed to this list, so - contributing registries don't need to be subscribed to both lists - mail does not need to be sent to both lists All 'guests' that were previously subscribed to local-ir have now been moved to lir-wg. I don't expect this to be much of a problem, but if it is: flames to me please. Kind regards, Roderik Muit RIPE NCC From David.Kessens at ripe.net Tue Jun 18 17:16:15 1996 From: David.Kessens at ripe.net (David.Kessens at ripe.net) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:16:15 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: FYI: David K. will be leaving the RIPE NCC Message-ID: <9606181516.AA12503@belegen.ripe.net> Dear all, After working for nearly 2 years at the RIPE NCC, I feel it is time for a change. I have found a new job at ISI (Los Angeles) where I will be involved with the RA project. I will leave the RIPE NCC at the end of July. As for the RIPE database: We currently plan to bring out the long expected 2.00 release version as soon as possible to keep some time left while I am still at the RIPE NCC in case problems arise. You can soon expect a message from me at the database working group maillist with all the open proposals (as promised during the last RIPE meeting). I would like to thank the RIPE community for their support of and input on my development work on the RIPE database and the reverse delegation tool. I hope that I will be able to collaborate as productively with you in my new job as we have in the past. Kind regards, David K. RIPE NCC ---- From marten at BayNetworks.com Tue Jun 18 17:16:10 1996 From: marten at BayNetworks.com (Marten Terpstra) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:16:10 -0400 Subject: FYI: David K. will be leaving the RIPE NCC In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:16:15 +0200. <9606181516.AA12503@belegen.ripe.net> Message-ID: <9606181516.AA12395@heineken.engeast> David, Congratulations and welcome to the US ;-) I think you did a great job maintaining the RIPE DB software mess that Tony and I left you with.... -Marten David.Kessens at ripe.net writes * * Dear all, * * After working for nearly 2 years at the RIPE NCC, I feel it is time for a * change. I have found a new job at ISI (Los Angeles) where I will be * involved with the RA project. I will leave the RIPE NCC at the end of July. * * As for the RIPE database: * * We currently plan to bring out the long expected 2.00 release version as * soon as possible to keep some time left while I am still at the RIPE NCC in * case problems arise. You can soon expect a message from me at the database * working group maillist with all the open proposals (as promised during * the last RIPE meeting). * * I would like to thank the RIPE community for their support of and input * on my development work on the RIPE database and the reverse delegation * tool. I hope that I will be able to collaborate as productively with you * in my new job as we have in the past. * * Kind regards, * * David K. * RIPE NCC * ---- From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Wed Jun 19 10:06:52 1996 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 09:06:52 +0100 Subject: FYI: David K. will be leaving the RIPE NCC In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 96 17:16:15 +0200." <9606181516.AA12503@belegen.ripe.net> Message-ID: <9606190806.AA04281@dalkey.hea.ie> David I'm sorry to hear you're leaving the RIPE NCC and wish you every success in the new job. Our loss is certainly ISI's gain. Your work lives on and has been of great benefit to RIPE and all its working groups. Even though you've been living in reverse domain land for quite some time, your ideas are still very forward-looking. Also, your kind manner, gentle humour and ever-helpful nature are qualities which epitomise the RIPE spirit and are bound to enhance any environment in which you are involved. In that sense, you'll still be a member of the RIPE community and I hope we can meet soon. Regards. Mike From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Wed Jun 19 13:08:41 1996 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:08:41 +0200 Subject: FYI: David K. will be leaving the RIPE NCC In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:16:15 MDT. <9606181516.AA12503@belegen.ripe.net> References: <9606181516.AA12503@belegen.ripe.net> Message-ID: <9606191108.AA16401@ncc.ripe.net> It goes without saying that all of us at the NCC wish David the very best for his future. His new job will give us many opportunities to keep in touch and work together. David has done much good work which has been praised so well by others already very elequently. I agree with their praise. Until July David is going to continue the good work by implementing and documenting new features in the database software as listed in yesterday's message. We plan to deploy the new whois server at the NCC early next week and the new update process shortly threreafter. We will keep you posted. After deployment here we will publish the needed documentation. We plan to release this software (2.0) before David leaves and we will circulate the release notes soon. We are already in the process of hiring more technical staff. Some of them will take the baton from David so that the evoloution and maintenance of the database software will continue as smoothly as possible. Daniel From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Wed Jun 19 14:03:17 1996 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:03:17 MET-DST Subject: FYI: David K. will be leaving the RIPE NCC Message-ID: <009A4170.8767B280.14@cc.univie.ac.at> Hi David ! >Dear all, > >After working for nearly 2 years at the RIPE NCC, I feel it is time for a >change. I have found a new job at ISI (Los Angeles) where I will be >involved with the RA project. I will leave the RIPE NCC at the end of July. As I said previously in a private message, sometimes it's a pity staying behind at the wrong side of the pond... I don't want to add to Mike's general praise - he has worded it much better than I could. Instead I'd like to extend our thanks to you wearing my hat as the RIPE-DB-WG convenor. It was, and still is, a pleasure to work with you, both professionally and personally. All the best for your new position! I sincerely hope to keep in contact and to continue the successful collaboration as close as possible. Again - both personally and professionally! Cheers, Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ncc at ripe.net Wed Jun 19 14:35:20 1996 From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Document Annoucement Service) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:35:20 +0200 Subject: New Document available: ripe-136++ Message-ID: <9606191235.AA18046@ncc.ripe.net> Revised RIPE Document Announcement -------------------------------------- A revised/new document is available from the RIPE document store. Ref: ripe-136++ Title: European Internet Registry Policies and Procedures Author: Local IR Working Group Date: 19 June 1996 Format: PS=923189 TXT=209542 bytes Obsoletes: ripe-104, ripe-105 Short content description ------------------------- A new document, ripe-136++ is now available in the RIPE document store. The contents of the first five sections of this document regarding the policies and procedures for the distribution of public IP address space in Europe and surrounding areas, were approved by the RIPE community during the RIPE-23 meeting held in January 1996. This document is an updated version of the original ripe-136 document with sections added on Internet Registry operations, AS number assignment procedures and Routing Registry policies and procedures. A table has also been added to section 5 to give a quick overview of reverse delegation procedures. Other changes made to the first five sections are minor. Please review this document and send your comments to me or to the lir-wg by 12 July, 1996. We will then review the comments and incorporate them before we officially publish the document. Paula Caslav RIPE NCC -------------- next part -------------- FTP Access ---------- All RIPE documents and Internet RFC`s are available via anonymous FTP from host ftp.ripe.net. Type "ftp ftp.ripe.net". Login with username "anonymous" supplying your email address as the password. After logging in, type "cd ripe/drafts/" followed by the command "get filename". The relevant filenames for this document are: ripe-136++.txt for the ASCII version ripe-136++.ps for the PostScript version Electronic Mail Retrieval of Documents -------------------------------------- Documents can also be retrieved from the RIPE document store using a mail server program. For more information on how to use the program, send email to: mail-server at ripe.net with "send HELP" in the body text. 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WAIS Access ----------- There is also a "WAIS" server at wais.ripe.net, where there is a WAIS index for RIPE documents "ripe-docs.src" WWW Access ---------- For those who wish to add this home page at the RIPE NCC to their own customized home pages, it can be accessed as: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/drafts/ MIME Mail Reader ---------------- Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the RIPE document by FTP or mail server. -------------- next part -------------- SEND ripe/drafts/ripe-136++.txt From David.Kessens at ripe.net Fri Jun 21 12:20:44 1996 From: David.Kessens at ripe.net (David.Kessens at ripe.net) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:20:44 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: URGENT: database ftp mirror problems and changes on the ftp site Message-ID: <9606211020.AA04494@belegen.ripe.net> Dear all, We had this morning troubles with copying our database files to the ftp site for people that run a secondary mirror. The problems are solved right now. However, I needed to make some changes in the procedures that affect all people that use our non 'gzipped' files. Since I wanted to make these changes anyway, I want to ask you if they are acceptable for you: I only make the 'gzipped' files available from now on. This causes less confusion between the different files available, less network traffic, faster availability of the database files on the ftp server and less load on the database server. Please let me know if you really need the uncompressed or .Z compressed files available and I will change this back. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me again, Kind regards, David Kessens RIPE NCC From bonito at nis.garr.it Tue Jun 25 13:15:08 1996 From: bonito at nis.garr.it (Antonio_Blasco Bonito) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 13:15:08 MET DST Subject: Please help: ptp links addresses Message-ID: <199606251115.NAA27501@cuori.nis.garr.it> Dear Local Registries, I need some advice on the following: An italian ISP, which we run its delegated LIR, is planning its backbone network where there are *A LOT* of point-to-point links (on leased lines, on channelized lines, on Frame Relay PVCs, etc.). I know about two ways of managing the links in terms of IP addresses: 1- using a /30 subnet for each link: in this way both ends of the link have a unique address (binary 01 and 10), but two addresses (binary 00 and 11) cannot be used, so 50% of the address space used is wasted. This should be avoided if possible because the address space required is really large. 2- using unnumbered interfaces for each link and, on cisco routers, associating another interface IP address (the loopback interface is quite useful for this purpose): in this way addresses are not wasted but certain functionalities are lost, i.e. SNMP monitoring of each physical interface, etc. Are you aware of any other way to deal with this issue so that it is possible to have IP addresses for each interface without wasting address space? Thank you very much in advance. ---------- ---------- Antonio-Blasco Bonito E-Mail: bonito at nis.garr.it GARR - Network Information Service c=it;a=garr;p=garr;o=nis;s=bonito c/o CNUCE - Istituto del CNR Tel: +39 50 593246 Via S. Maria, 36 Fax: +39 50 904052 I-56126 PISA Telex: 500371 CNUCE I Italy Url: http://www.nis.garr.it/nis/staff/bonito.html ---------- ---------- From stenuit at mail.interpac.be Tue Jun 25 13:44:34 1996 From: stenuit at mail.interpac.be (Jean-Francois Stenuit) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:44:34 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Please help: ptp links addresses Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960625135345.2137f65e@mail.interpac.be> At 13:15 25/06/96 DST, Antonio_Blasco Bonito wrote: >Dear Local Registries, > > >I need some advice on the following: > >An italian ISP, which we run its delegated LIR, is planning its >backbone network where there are *A LOT* of point-to-point links (on >leased lines, on channelized lines, on Frame Relay PVCs, etc.). > >I know about two ways of managing the links in terms of IP addresses: > >1- using a /30 subnet for each link: > in this way both ends of the link have a unique address (binary > 01 and 10), but two addresses (binary 00 and 11) cannot be used, > so 50% of the address space used is wasted. This should be > avoided if possible because the address space required is > really large. > >2- using unnumbered interfaces for each link and, on cisco routers, > associating another interface IP address (the loopback interface > is quite useful for this purpose): > in this way addresses are not wasted but certain functionalities > are lost, i.e. SNMP monitoring of each physical interface, etc. > > >Are you aware of any other way to deal with this issue so that it >is possible to have IP addresses for each interface without wasting >address space? > >Thank you very much in advance. Of course ! You can use RFC1597 addresses which are routed only in your domain, so that your SNMP managers can reach each Interface. The problem is for somebody from the outside wanting to address the interface (which is frequent with tools like traceroute), who will not see any answers from your routers. Anyway, this is a good solution if you want access to your interfaces only from you domain (and, as a side effect, it increase security on your routers). We are currently using this scheme for our ISDN links. Regards, -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Jean-Francois "Jef" Stenuit | Interpac Belgium NV/SA | Solaris 2.x \ \Internet administrator | 350/358 Avenue Louise Box 11 | Cisco / /Phone (32)(2) 646-6000 | B-1050 Brussels | Netblazer \ \Fax (32)(2) 640-3638 | Belgium | / /Email stenuit at interpac.be | | expert ... \ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Tue Jun 25 17:01:41 1996 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 16:01:41 +0100 Subject: Please help: ptp links addresses In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jun 96 13:15:08 +0700." <199606251115.NAA27501@cuori.nis.garr.it> Message-ID: <9606251501.AA11193@dalkey.hea.ie> >1- using a /30 subnet for each link: > in this way both ends of the link have a unique address (binary > 01 and 10), but two addresses (binary 00 and 11) cannot be used, > so 50% of the address space used is wasted. This should be > avoided if possible because the address space required is > really large. The usage is actually 75%, as there are effectively three addresses: the two ends (00 and 01) and the broadcast address for the network (11). 10 is the unused address. Mike From root at arcadis.be Tue Jun 25 18:37:04 1996 From: root at arcadis.be (Hugues De Jonghe) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:37:04 +0100 Subject: Please help: ptp links addresses Message-ID: <9606251637.AA07192@iris.arcadis.be> > The usage is actually 75%, as there are effectively three addresses: > the two ends (00 and 01) and the broadcast address for the network > (11). 10 is the unused address. You don't waste a broadcast address on a, let's say, /24 network but you have to consider it as waste if you plan to use *a lot* of /30 networks. Still, most of the routing protocols use broadcasting so I guess that's what you meant when you said it wasn't a waste... - Hugh From HANK at VM.TAU.AC.IL Tue Jun 25 18:39:29 1996 From: HANK at VM.TAU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 18:39:29 IST Subject: Please help: ptp links addresses In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:44:34 +0200 (MET DST) from Message-ID: <9606251541.AA18182@ncc.ripe.net> On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:44:34 +0200 (MET DST) you said: >Of course ! You can use RFC1597 addresses which are routed only in your >domain, so that your SNMP managers can reach each Interface. RFC1918. RFC1597 has been obsoleted (although the addresses stay the same). Hank From barak at netvision.net.il Wed Jun 26 08:49:40 1996 From: barak at netvision.net.il (barak at netvision.net.il) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 08:49:40 Subject: Please help: ptp links addresses Message-ID: --- On Tue, 25 Jun 96 16:01:41 +0100 Mike Norris wrote: >1- using a /30 subnet for each link: > in this way both ends of the link have a unique address (binary > 01 and 10), but two addresses (binary 00 and 11) cannot be used, > so 50% of the address space used is wasted. This should be > avoided if possible because the address space required is > really large. The usage is actually 75%, as there are effectively three addresses: the two ends (00 and 01) and the broadcast address for the network (11). 10 is the unused address. Mike -----------------End of Original Message----------------- Actually, if you are using Cisco solely, you can always define "ip subnet-zero", and use broadcast AND network addresses. No loss :-) Cheers, Sincerely, \'"'/ Barak Engel ( o o ) ---------------------ooOO-^-oOOo---------- Engel Barak, NetVision WAN team BE-RIPE E-mail: barak at netvision.net.il Date: 6/26/96 Time: 8:49:40 AM Phone: +972 4 8550330 Fax: +972 4 8550345 ------------------------------------------