From Anne.Lord at ripe.net Fri May 6 13:04:27 1994 From: Anne.Lord at ripe.net (Anne Lord) Date: Fri, 06 May 1994 13:04:27 +0200 Subject: 2nd Local IR workshop announcement and registration form. Message-ID: <9405061104.AA23679@mellow.ripe.net> The second Local IR workshop will be held on Monday 16th May. The meeting will run from 10.00 - 12.30. The number of participants will be limited to *only* those who register using the form below. Coffee and lunch is included. The location of the meeting will be announced just before the meeting and only to those who register. Please register asap so we can organise the catering. Thanks, Anne - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - - -- -- - - -- - - 18th RIPE meeting LOCAL IR CLOSED WORKSHOP Amsterdam, May 16th, 10.00 am Programme and Registration Form Total useful time: 120 minutes Breaks: 30 Minutes 1. Review of the Program (10') If any participant has something interesting we would love to hear it. Please mail to in advance if possible. 2. Tools for registries (30') At the NCC we have developed some tools to help with registry work. We are sure other registries have done the same. We would like such tools to be more widely used if applicable. Overview of tools being developed at the NCC Overview of tools being developed elsewhere stt: Standard Text Tool or How to reply to answer mail courteously and efficiently 3. Private Address Space (RFC1597) (30'): RFC1597 has been published and IANA has reserved IP address space for private parts of enterprise networks. We'll have a short review of the RFC by one of the authors and a discussion what local registries should do with it. What is private address space? How does it affect local registries? Discussion. 4. Common pitfalls in in-addr.arpa name service (20') The NCC sees quite a numberof configuration errors in in-addr.arpa zones. Common pitfalls are going to be discussed and ripe-105 reviewed. 5. Interesting Assignment Cases (30') A discussion of difficult cases of address space assignment from the NCC and local registries. - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -Registration Form- - - -- - - - - - - Local IR workshop Monday 16th May, 10.00 ( ) I would like take part in the LOCAL IR workshop. Name: Organisation/affiliation: Country: Please send your completed form to . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 10 16:58:46 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 16:58:46 +0200 Subject: Classless Registry Drafts Message-ID: <9405101458.AA07315@reif.ripe.net> Dear colleagues, we have prepared three draft documents describing how support for classless addresses can be added to the RIPE database. At the same time we propose a clear split between the allocation registry and the routing registry functions of the database. The allocation registry holds information about address space assignments done by Internet registries, while the routing registry holds information about routing policies and is largely maintained by the service providers. The three documents each describe one part of this new database. ripe-81++ - routing registry ripe-inetnum - allocation registry ripe-clarep - representation of classless addresses ripe-81++ is the longest document of the three. It describes the routing registry part of the database. It is a direct descendant of ripe-81. There are major changes as required by the separation of allocation and routing information. Also there is now support for classless routes and hence CIDR aggregation. It is also now possible to describe multiple ASes originating the same route. ripe-inetnum describes the changed inetnum object which is basically stripped of all routing and obsoleted attributes. ripe-inetnum also describes the person object and thus constitutes a complete reference for the allocation registry. ripe-clarep describes the representation of classless addresses in the RIPE database and thus in both the routing and the allocation registry. As these proposals are relevant to all three working groups addressed, we would appreciate if they could be discussed at the upcoming meeting and if at all possible consensus reached at least about the general design behind them. We need to make the registries classless as soon as possible and it will take some time to do the implementation. The documents can be found in ftp.ripe.net:ripe/drafts/.{ps,txt}. We will be sending MIMEd announcements for all three shortly. Comments are very welcome indeed. Daniel Marten Tony From ncc at ripe.net Tue May 10 17:07:53 1994 From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Draft Document Annoucement Service) Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 17:07:53 +0200 Subject: New Draft Document available: ripe-clarep Message-ID: <9405101507.AA17983@mature.ripe.net> This is to announce a draft version of the classless reperesentation document. -------------- next part -------------- FTP Access ---------- All RIPE documents and Internet RFC`s are available via anonymous FTP from host ftp.ripe.net. Type "ftp ftp.ripe.net". Login with username "anonymous" supplying your email address as the password. After logging in, type "cd ripe/drafts/" followed by the command "get filename". The relevant filenames for this document are: ripe-clarep.txt for the ASCII version ripe-clarep.ps for the PostScript version Electronic Mail Retrieval of Documents -------------------------------------- Documents can also be retrieved from the RIPE document store using a mail server program. For more information on how to use the program, send email to: mail-server at ripe.net with "send HELP" in the body text. RIPE NCC Interactive Information Server --------------------------------------- Type "telnet info.ripe.net". This is a menu driven service allows the document store to be browsed. After reading documents you are prompted as to whether you would like to receive an email copy of the document you have just read. If you would, you simply enter your email address and the document will be mailed to you. Below are details of alternative methods of access. Gopher Access ------------- The same documents are available via a "gopher" server at "gopher gopher.ripe.net". MIME Mail Reader ---------------- Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the RIPE document by FTP or mail server. -------------- next part -------------- SEND ripe/drafts/ripe-clarep.txt From ncc at ripe.net Tue May 10 17:06:00 1994 From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Draft Document Annoucement Service) Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 17:06:00 +0200 Subject: New Draft Document available: ripe-81++ Message-ID: <9405101506.AA17972@mature.ripe.net> This is to announce a draft version of ripe-81++. -------------- next part -------------- FTP Access ---------- All RIPE documents and Internet RFC`s are available via anonymous FTP from host ftp.ripe.net. Type "ftp ftp.ripe.net". Login with username "anonymous" supplying your email address as the password. After logging in, type "cd ripe/drafts/" followed by the command "get filename". The relevant filenames for this document are: ripe-81++.txt for the ASCII version ripe-81++.ps for the PostScript version Electronic Mail Retrieval of Documents -------------------------------------- Documents can also be retrieved from the RIPE document store using a mail server program. For more information on how to use the program, send email to: mail-server at ripe.net with "send HELP" in the body text. RIPE NCC Interactive Information Server --------------------------------------- Type "telnet info.ripe.net". This is a menu driven service allows the document store to be browsed. After reading documents you are prompted as to whether you would like to receive an email copy of the document you have just read. If you would, you simply enter your email address and the document will be mailed to you. Below are details of alternative methods of access. Gopher Access ------------- The same documents are available via a "gopher" server at "gopher gopher.ripe.net". MIME Mail Reader ---------------- Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the RIPE document by FTP or mail server. -------------- next part -------------- SEND ripe/drafts/ripe-81++.txt From ncc at ripe.net Tue May 10 17:10:13 1994 From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Draft Document Annoucement Service) Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 17:10:13 +0200 Subject: New Draft Document available: ripe-inetnum Message-ID: <9405101510.AA17998@mature.ripe.net> Short content description ------------------------- This is to announce a draft update to the inetnum document originally known as ripe-050. -------------- next part -------------- FTP Access ---------- All RIPE documents and Internet RFC`s are available via anonymous FTP from host ftp.ripe.net. Type "ftp ftp.ripe.net". Login with username "anonymous" supplying your email address as the password. After logging in, type "cd ripe/drafts/" followed by the command "get filename". The relevant filenames for this document are: ripe-inetnum.txt for the ASCII version ripe-inetnum.ps for the PostScript version Electronic Mail Retrieval of Documents -------------------------------------- Documents can also be retrieved from the RIPE document store using a mail server program. For more information on how to use the program, send email to: mail-server at ripe.net with "send HELP" in the body text. RIPE NCC Interactive Information Server --------------------------------------- Type "telnet info.ripe.net". This is a menu driven service allows the document store to be browsed. After reading documents you are prompted as to whether you would like to receive an email copy of the document you have just read. If you would, you simply enter your email address and the document will be mailed to you. Below are details of alternative methods of access. Gopher Access ------------- The same documents are available via a "gopher" server at "gopher gopher.ripe.net". MIME Mail Reader ---------------- Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the RIPE document by FTP or mail server. -------------- next part -------------- SEND ripe/drafts/ripe-inetnum.txt From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Wed May 11 17:59:48 1994 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 16:59:48 +0100 Subject: Action 17.3,4: Proposal - Report format for address assignments Message-ID: <0097E477.9DF17FC0.3984@cc.univie.ac.at> Dear all, this is the first proposal - for discussion - of a possible report format for the local registries. While I did not yet have a good idea for a simple "graphical" format, this is a format that could be used both internally for keeping track of allocations and could be easy to compare. To have a sort of "live" example, I converted my local file into the proposed format. Any input welcome! Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # # ACTIVE$DKA300:[WILFRIED.LOCAL_IR]193_170_X_0.LIST history kept by CMS # 193.170.1.0 193.170.254.0 ACONET initially managed by NCC, now by UniVie Legend: Block: CIDR block F/A(+R): F=free, A=assigned + optional reservation Start: first address in block End: last address in block Netname: name of network(s) used in the RIPE-DB to whom: local assignement information (optional) Block F/A(+R) Start End Netname(s) to whom... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 01 F.01.-- 193.170.0.0 - not to be assigned! 01 F.01.-- 193.170.1.0 - FREE (revoked ass. for Vienna EB 01 A.01.-- 193.170.2.0 TVLBG Technikum Vorarlberg 01 A.01.-- 193.170.3.0 ATINET Atominst. der Oest. Univ. 01 A.01.-- 193.170.4.0 ELAKVIE HS f. Musik u. darst. Kunst, I.f 01 A.01.-- 193.170.5.0 WAZ Wiener Akad. f. Zukunftsfragen b 02 A.01.01 193.170.6.0 193.170.7.0 VA-EDV HBLVA Spengergasse 04 A.02.02 193.170.8.0 193.170.11.0 TGM TGM Wien-XX 02 A.01.01 193.170.12.0 193.170.13.0 OINET Oekologie Institut 02 A.01.01 193.170.14.0 193.170.15.0 XBIT HTBL Klagenfurt 16 A.16.-- 193.170.16.0 193.170.31.0 UNILEO-C1,2,... Uni Leoben 16 A.08.08 193.170.32.0 193.170.47.0 KGI-LAN Uni-Linz 16 A.16.-- 193.170.48.0 193.170.63.0 UNIVIE11,12,... UniVie scattered nets 02 A.01.01 193.170.64.0 193.170.65.0 ARCS1 Seibersdorf 01 A.01.-- 193.170.66.0 CEDAR CEDAR C.E.Data Request Fac. 01 F.01.-- 193.170.67.0 - FREE 02 A.01.01 193.170.68.0 193.170.69.0 INTIBNET UNIDO/IPCT/TDP/INF 02 A.01.01 193.170.70.0 193.170.71.0 HTL-RANKWEIL HTL Rankweil 08 A.05.03 193.170.72.0 193.170.79.0 TUNET-S6,7,... TU-Wien 16 A.16.-- 193.170.80.0 193.170.95.0 OEAW-C-NETS OeAW, Inst. Netzwerke 08 A.04.04 193.170.96.0 193.170.103.0 KHS-LINZ-NETS Univ. of Arts and Ind. Design 08 A.04.04 193.170.104.0 193.170.111.0 ARSENAL BVFA Arsenal by. A.Deutsch 04 A.02.02 193.170.112.0 193.170.115.0 ONB Oest.Nat.Bibliothek, Pl.Stelle 02 A.01.01 193.170.116.0 193.170.117.0 ODVNET Umweltbundesamt Ozon-DV by H.Mir 02 A.01.01 193.170.118.0 193.170.119.0 HTL-STP Hvhere technische BLA St.Pvlten 04 A.01.03 193.170.120.0 193.170.123.0 ATMAGL Mag. der Stadt Linz 04 A.04.-- 193.170.124.0 193.170.127.0 FHS-HGBG-LAN FHS-Hagenberg 08 A.04.04 193.170.128.0 193.170.135.0 MHS-GRAZ HS f. Musik u. darst. Kunst 02 A.01.01 193.170.136.0 193.170.137.0 UNILEOBEN Uni Leoben 02 A.01.01 193.170.138.0 193.170.139.0 PIB-WIEN PIB Paedag.Inst.d.Bundes 02 A.02.-- 193.170.140.0 193.170.141.0 VIE-EBS1,2 Vienna-EBS1 serial outgoing 02 A.01.01 193.170.142.0 193.170.143.0 AMDA-AT AMDA-AT Linz 04 A.03.01 193.170.144.0 193.170.147.0 ADBK Akad. d. bildenden Kuenste Wien 04 F.04.-- 193.170.148.0 193.170.151.0 - FREE 04 A.02.02 193.170.152.0 193.170.155.0 BDANET Bundesdenkmalamt by H.Hatzinger 04 A.04.-- 193.170.156.0 193.170.159.0 HTL-LEONDING HTL-Leonding 02 A.02.-- 193.170.160.0 193.170.161.0 UBA-VIENNA Umweltbundesamt Wien by H.Mirth 01 A.01.-- 193.170.162.0 HTL-WIEN-1 HTL Wien I, Schellinggasse 01 A.01.-- 193.170.163.0 OESTAT Statistisches Zentralamt by W.St 02 A.01.01 193.170.164.0 193.170.165.0 PTT01NET G.Dir. f.d. Post u. Telegr.verw. 02 A.01.01 193.170.166.0 193.170.167.0 OEHZA OeH Zentralausschuss by K.Egger 08 A.08.-- 193.170.168.0 193.170.175.0 ZAMGRZ ZA f. Meteorologie u. Geodynamik 08 A.06.02 193.170.176.0 193.170.183.0 MOZNET HS MudK "Mozarteum" Salzburg 08 F.08.-- 193.170.184.0 193.170.191.0 - FREE 64 A.01.63 193.170.192.0 193.170.254.0 AEN Ars Electronica Ctr./Mus.3rd.Mil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Statistics: Addresses assigned: 130 Addresses reserved: 111 Addresses free: 15 Biggest block ass'd: 64 Size Number Free Ass'd Reserved Comments... 1 10 2 7 0 2 15 0 15 13 4 8 4 17 9 8 7 8 34 18 16 4 0 45 8 32 -- -- -- -- 64 1 0 1 63 see note 1) 128 -- -- -- -- General comments: Some of the previously reserved address blocks have already been cut in size and reassigned or reassigned completely. In at least 3 instances reserved blocks (up to size 8) have been completely allocated within 9 month after the initial allocation. We will continue to reallocate small reserved blocks from this address range to new applications for 1 or two addresses, especially when no growth in the networks -holding the reservation- has been seen within a reasonable timeframe. Note 1: A tentative reservation was made (to be reviewed by the NCC) for a newly built "Museum of Electronic Arts and Museum of the 3rd Millenium", in favour of allocating a large block in the beginning that is potentially never used. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Wilfried.Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From huber at chx400.switch.ch Fri May 13 11:10:09 1994 From: huber at chx400.switch.ch (Willi Huber) Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 11:10:09 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Action 17.3,4: Proposal - Report format for address assignment ...\ Message-ID: <9405130910.AA16610@ncc.ripe.net> Wilfried Woeber wrote: > Dear all, > > this is the first proposal - for discussion - of a possible report > format for the local registries. While I did not yet have a good idea > for a simple "graphical" format, this is a format that could be used > both internally for keeping track of allocations and could be easy to > compare. Here is another approach. While Wilfrieds proposal gives a lot of details about the assigned networks, I was trying to show an overview on the status of the assignments. The following table gives an overview of the whole address space 193.0.0.0 - 194.255.255.0. The table shows the current contents of the RIPE database, where . stands for an unassigned network # * stand for assigned networks A sequence of #### or **** is used for network ranges described with one network entry in the RIPE database. The characters # and * are alternated for each network entry, so that one can see the size of the ranges. Willi Huber SWITCH -------------------- RIPE database version 94/05/07 193.000.000.0 ******##*#......****************................................ 193.000.064.0 ................................................................ 193.000.128.0 ################################################################ 193.000.192.0 ###############################################################. 193.001.000.0 ........................*#######........********........######## 193.001.064.0 *#..............********########................********#******* 193.001.128.0 #*#*.#...*#*....................................########******** 193.001.192.0 .#*#*#*##.....*#*.#############################################. 193.002.000.0 .*#.*#*#*#*#*................................................... 193.002.064.0 #*.#*#......................*#*#..........................*#..*# 193.002.128.0 .............................*#*................................ 193.002.192.0 ################*#*#***.##**##**################*.##............ 193.003.000.0 .***************#########.......****#*#*###*###...**##**####.... 193.003.064.0 **************************************************************** 193.003.128.0 ##..*#**#*......########........******************************** 193.003.192.0 #####################*##########*****...#.**..#*#*#*#*#.****.... 193.004.000.0 .#*#*#..........*#*#*#..........*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#......*#...... 193.004.064.0 *#*#*#..*#*#*#*#....*#*#*#*#*...#.*#*#*#*#..*#.................. 193.004.128.0 ............................*#*...#...*.#*#.*.#.*.#.*.#*#.*.#*#. 193.004.192.0 ..*#*.#...*.#*#*#*#.*.#.*.#.*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#.. 193.005.000.0 .*#*#...**##****#*#*#*#*#*##*#*#****#*#*#*#*##**#*#*#*##**#.*#*# 193.005.064.0 ....**##****####*#*#*#*#********#*#*#*#*#*#*####****####*#*#*#** 193.005.128.0 ################******..####****#####...****##**##*#************ 193.005.192.0 ########################********################**********#.*#*. 193.006.000.0 .#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#......*#*.....#*.....# 193.006.064.0 ********************************#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* 193.006.128.0 #*#*#*#*#*#*........############................*#*#*#.......... 193.006.192.0 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#****#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#.......*#***************. 193.007.000.0 ################################################################ 193.007.064.0 ################################################################ 193.007.128.0 ********************************................................ 193.007.192.0 ################################******************************** 193.008.000.0 .########.......*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#********######....**..#. 193.008.064.0 *#*#............*#*#....*#*#....*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#........*#*#.... 193.008.128.0 *#..*#*#*#..*#*.#*..#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#...*#......*.......#*..##.. 193.008.192.0 *.#*#.*#*.#...*.......#.*#..**#.*.#.*#*.#.*.#.*.#.*.#.*.#.*.#.*. 193.009.000.0 .#*#*#*#****#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*################**************** 193.009.064.0 ################################################................ 193.009.128.0 ********************#*#*#*#*#*..################################ 193.009.192.0 ***************************************************************. 193.010.000.0 .#*#*#*#***.....###########*****#*#*#***#*#*#*#.****............ 193.010.064.0 ...............#*#*#*#*#................****************.......# 193.010.128.0 ................................................................ 193.010.192.0 ................................................................ 193.011.000.0 ................................................................ 193.011.064.0 ................................................................ 193.011.128.0 ................................................................ 193.011.192.0 ................................................................ 193.012.000.0 .*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#.*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*###*#*#*#*### 193.012.064.0 ***************************#*#**########*#*#****####*#*#*#*#*#*# 193.012.128.0 *****###********##*#**#*####*#*#********####*#*#*#*#*#*#****#*.. 193.012.192.0 ####****####**...............................................#*. 193.013.000.0 ................................################################ 193.013.064.0 ................................................................ 193.013.128.0 ................................................................ 193.013.192.0 ................................................................ 193.014.000.0 ................................................................ 193.014.064.0 ................................................................ 193.014.128.0 ................................................................ 193.014.192.0 ................................................................ 193.015.000.0 ................................................................ 193.015.064.0 ................................................................ 193.015.128.0 ................................................................ 193.015.192.0 ................................................................ 193.016.000.0 .*#*####*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*.....#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* 193.016.064.0 #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*................#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* 193.016.128.0 #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*................#*#*#*#*################........ 193.016.192.0 ****************....#.**......#*#*#*#.**................#*##*#*. 193.017.000.0 .#*#*#*#****....#*#*#*#*#*#*####********........####....****#*.. 193.017.064.0 ................####..**########*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# 193.017.128.0 ******************************************..........####*.....#* 193.017.192.0 ..............................................#*........#*#*.... 193.018.000.0 .############################################################### 193.018.064.0 ################################################################ 193.018.128.0 ################################################################ 193.018.192.0 ################################################################ 193.019.000.0 ################################................................ 193.019.064.0 ................................................................ 193.019.128.0 ................................................................ 193.019.192.0 ................................................................ 193.020.000.0 **************************************************************** 193.020.064.0 **************************************************************** 193.020.128.0 **************************************************************** 193.020.192.0 **************************************************************** 193.021.000.0 **************************************************************** 193.021.064.0 **************************************************************** 193.021.128.0 **************************************************************** 193.021.192.0 **************************************************************** 193.022.000.0 .#*#*...####****####.*##****....################################ 193.022.064.0 ****************................####**..###.*#*#*#*.###.******** 193.022.128.0 ########*.......################****............####****######## 193.022.192.0 ################################****************##.............. 193.023.000.0 .*#*#*#*########****************##############*#................ 193.023.064.0 ********************************################................ 193.023.128.0 ****#*#*########****####****....#*#*#*#*####....****....######## 193.023.192.0 ********************************......##########**#*#*#*#*#*#*#. 193.024.000.0 .*#*#*#*####*...########........****#*#*########**************** 193.024.064.0 ########********########********................################ 193.024.128.0 **************************************************************** 193.024.192.0 ................................................................ 193.025.000.0 ................################****************################ 193.025.064.0 ********************************................................ 193.025.128.0 ################################................................ 193.025.192.0 ........********##**##**####....****************########****##*. 193.026.000.0 ................................################################ 193.026.064.0 ********************************################********#*#*#*#* 193.026.128.0 ........########****####********################################ 193.026.192.0 *###############................****************######*#*#*#*#** 193.027.000.0 ............####*#*#*#*#*#**####********........########........ 193.027.064.0 ................................******************************** 193.027.128.0 ################################################################ 193.027.192.0 ................................................................ 193.028.000.0 .*#*#*#*....####****************####****##......**#*##*#*.#*#*#* 193.028.064.0 ########********####............********...##################### 193.028.128.0 ****************................################................ 193.028.192.0 ********........####****####****................##########...... 193.029.000.0 .*#*#*#*#*#*##**#*#*#*##*#*#**##****....##*#****........######## 193.029.064.0 ********************************################**************** 193.029.128.0 ....####***.####****************################*#*#*#**....#*#* 193.029.192.0 ########........**********......##**#*#*########********##*#**#. 193.030.000.0 .*#*##*#****####**#*#*##****####*#*#***.....####**************** 193.030.064.0 ################********#*#*#*#*########****....#*#*#*##**##**## 193.030.128.0 **##*#*#****....################........************************ 193.030.192.0 ################################................................ 193.031.000.0 .*#*#*#*##**##..*#*#*#**####**##********########********####*#*# 193.031.064.0 ****************################******************************** 193.031.128.0 ################################******************************** 193.031.192.0 ################################****************########**##**#. 193.032.000.0 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#**#*#*#*#*#*#*#*####*#*#*#****#************* 193.032.064.0 ******************#*####****######**#*#*#*####*#**####********## 193.032.128.0 ********************************#*####**########**************** 193.032.192.0 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**************************************************************** 194.050.000.0 ................################****************................ 194.050.064.0 ................................................................ 194.050.128.0 ................................................................ 194.050.192.0 ................................................................ 194.051.000.0 ..##............................................................ 194.051.064.0 ................................................................ 194.051.128.0 ................................................................ 194.051.192.0 ................................................................ 194.052.000.0 ................................................................ 194.052.064.0 ................................................................ 194.052.128.0 ................................................................ 194.052.192.0 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................................................................ 194.056.000.0 ................................................................ 194.056.064.0 ................................................................ 194.056.128.0 ................................................................ 194.056.192.0 ................................................................ 194.057.000.0 ................................................................ 194.057.064.0 ................................................................ 194.057.128.0 ................................................................ 194.057.192.0 ................................................................ 194.058.000.0 ................................................................ 194.058.064.0 ................................................................ 194.058.128.0 ................................................................ 194.058.192.0 ................................................................ 194.059.000.0 ................................................................ 194.059.064.0 ................................................................ 194.059.128.0 ................................................................ 194.059.192.0 ................................................................ 194.060.000.0 ................................................................ 194.060.064.0 ................................................................ 194.060.128.0 ................................................................ 194.060.192.0 ................................................................ 194.061.000.0 ................................................................ 194.061.064.0 ................................................................ 194.061.128.0 ................................................................ 194.061.192.0 ................................................................ 194.062.000.0 ................................................................ 194.062.064.0 ................................................................ 194.062.128.0 ................................................................ 194.062.192.0 ................................................................ 194.063.000.0 ................................................................ 194.063.064.0 ................................................................ 194.063.128.0 ................................................................ 194.063.192.0 ................................................................ 194.064.000.0 #*#*#*#*#....................................................... 194.064.064.0 ................................................................ 194.064.128.0 ................................................................ 194.064.192.0 ................................................................ 194.065.000.0 ****............................................................ 194.065.064.0 ................................................................ 194.065.128.0 ................................................................ 194.065.192.0 ................................................................ 194.066.000.0 #*#*#*#*####****################******************************** 194.066.064.0 ################................******************************** 194.066.128.0 ................................................................ 194.066.192.0 ................................................................ 194.067.000.0 ................................................................ 194.067.064.0 ................................................................ 194.067.128.0 ................................................................ 194.067.192.0 ................................................................ 194.068.000.0 .#*#**#*#####*#*#####*##********#*#*#........................... 194.068.064.0 ................................................................ 194.068.128.0 ................................................................ 194.068.192.0 ................................................................ 194.069.000.0 ................................................................ 194.069.064.0 ................................................................ 194.069.128.0 ................................................................ 194.069.192.0 ................................................................ the rest till 194.255.255.0 is all unassigned From erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl Thu May 19 12:23:33 1994 From: erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl (Erik-Jan Bos) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <"survis.sur.509:19.04.94.10.23.37"@surfnet.nl> Local IRs, I planned to attend the Local IR WG meeting at RIPE last Tuesday, but the meeting was moved to yesterday, the same time as the Mbone WG meeting (where I had to be for "chairing reasons"). And I forgot all about it... As Last Resort IR for The Netherlands I received a request for address space (one C network) from an individual. The person requesting address space tells me he has several machines at home able to talk IP and he wants to interconnect them. Since he has plans to connect his LAN at home to the Internet some day in the future he asks for an official IP network number (which means RFC1597 is of no help in this case). IMHO, this is a question which we will see in an increasingly frequency in the near future. Think of what happens if IP functionality is built in to Microsoft software... I'd like to know whether you have received requests like this before, and how you aproached this issue, since I think "we all" should have a common attitude in Europe (better: world-wide) on this. Thanks for your concern. __ Erik-Jan. From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Thu May 19 13:36:02 1994 From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:02 IDT Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200 from Message-ID: <9405191049.AA06985@ncc.ripe.net> I am very curious to see the minutes of the local-ir meeting since I was not able to attend. When handing out IP addresses was a few a week we all handled it on a volunteer basis and everyone was happy. Then we formed a RIPE and everyone was asked to "fund" the registration process of IP addresses, domain names, individual names, etc. And we all gladly pay it. But when I recently posted in regards to our plans to charge customers for IP address registration I got all sorts of flames. When the number of requests will start approaching a thousand a month and the government in your country is not willing to fund the operation of an Internic out of the generosity of their heart, and the computing center where you work cannot any longer dedicate you to a fulltime registar position then something has to give. As Eric-Jan has brought up, people will soon want home IP numbers and I foresee the only logical solution will be to simply charge users a small registration fee. Those that are serious about connecting up will gladly pay $30-$50 for a class C net. Those that just want to call up and bother you since it is a currently a free non-discriminating service will think twice if they have to dig into their 16 year old wallet and shell out $50. I would like to see a European/RIPE "recommendation" for costs for: a) IP address registration b) domain name registration c) routing update Hank From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 12:50:59 1994 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Thu, 19 May 94 11:50:59 +0100 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 94 12:23:33 +0200." <"survis.sur.509:19.04.94.10.23.37"@surfnet.nl> Message-ID: <9405191050.AA22906@dalkey.hea.ie> Erik-Jan I have heard of similar cases, usually involving individuals or very small businesses. The potential demand is alarming. At a macro level, the Internet is becoming classless and terms like "Class C" will soon be politically incorrect. However, we're dealing with the micro level, where the application code doesn't know about these new developments. So the smallest unit we can assign is 8 bits of address space. Is there any prospect that this might change? Mike From martijn at NL.net Thu May 19 13:13:49 1994 From: martijn at NL.net (Martijn Roos Lindgreen) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 13:13:49 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:02 IDT . <9405191049.AA06985@ncc.ripe.net> Message-ID: <9405191113.AA04263@ntp0.NL.net> > the number of requests will start approaching a thousand a month and the > government in your country is not willing to fund the operation of an > Internic out of the generosity of their heart, and the computing center > where you work cannot any longer dedicate you to a fulltime registar position > then something has to give. ... > I foresee the only logical solution will be to simply charge users > a small registration fee. I foresee by that time the government will not have to do anything with the IP number registration. Network providers will be commercial and fighting for each potential customer. Cheap or even free numbers are one way to attract customers, and a very effective one at that. Martijn. From davidc at is.apnic.net Thu May 19 13:20:30 1994 From: davidc at is.apnic.net (David R Conrad) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 20:20:30 +0900 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200." <"survis.sur.509:19.04.94.10.23.37"@surfnet.nl> Message-ID: <9405191120.AA01891@is.apnic.net> If you don't mind some comments from a person a little separated from Europe (but you did mention world-wide): JPNIC and APNIC have recieved many requests for addresses for very small numbers of hosts (e.g. 2 or 3). This is a result of firewalls apparently being more popular in this region than elsewhere. In addition, I believe there have been requests to JPNIC from individuals for address space for similar situations as you have experienced. The response to these requests have generally been the allocation of a single class C network. I personally feel it would be highly useful if sub-C allocations were allowed from within service provider address space (only - renumbering individual sites is obviously trivial) in order to get higher address space utilization rates. I'm supposed to be writing a proposal for JPNIC to address this very issue, but I seem to have lost my copious spare time... Cheers, -drc -------- >Local IRs, > >I planned to attend the Local IR WG meeting at RIPE last Tuesday, but >the meeting was moved to yesterday, the same time as the Mbone WG >meeting (where I had to be for "chairing reasons"). And I forgot all >about it... > >As Last Resort IR for The Netherlands I received a request for address >space (one C network) from an individual. The person requesting address >space tells me he has several machines at home able to talk IP and he >wants to interconnect them. > >Since he has plans to connect his LAN at home to the Internet some day in >the future he asks for an official IP network number (which means RFC1597 >is of no help in this case). > >IMHO, this is a question which we will see in an increasingly frequency >in the near future. Think of what happens if IP functionality is built in >to Microsoft software... > >I'd like to know whether you have received requests like this before, >and how you aproached this issue, since I think "we all" should have a >common attitude in Europe (better: world-wide) on this. >Thanks for your concern. > >__ > >Erik-Jan. From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Thu May 19 14:18:11 1994 From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Thu, 19 May 94 14:18:11 IDT Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 May 1994 13:13:49 +0200 from Message-ID: <9405191127.AA07303@ncc.ripe.net> On Thu, 19 May 1994 13:13:49 +0200 you said: > >> the number of requests will start approaching a thousand a month and the >> government in your country is not willing to fund the operation of an >> Internic out of the generosity of their heart, and the computing center >> where you work cannot any longer dedicate you to a fulltime registar position >> then something has to give. >... >> I foresee the only logical solution will be to simply charge users >> a small registration fee. > >I foresee by that time the government will not have to do >anything with the IP number registration. Network providers will >be commercial and fighting for each potential customer. Cheap >or even free numbers are one way to attract customers, and a very >effective one at that. > > >Martijn. Yes for those customers that want to be connected *now*, yes the service provider will provide free of charge the IP number (or at least should). But just look at Internic and how many of the assigned IP nets are actually connected. Many companies either have closed nets, or want IP addresses for the networks they are building today that at some point in the distant future they might want to connect to the global Internet. So what happens when the 16 year kid calls up SuperInternetService Inc and says I want an IP address? Or the telecom manager of Netwidget Inc wants 35 class C nets for his multinational closed IP network? At some point SuperInternetService Inc which runs on a profit basis and does nothing for free will do the calculation of whether it is worth his while to deal with all these "future potential" customers. The customer when he is ready to connect will evaluate who has a cheaper rate and a better support staff and not who gave them a free IP network 2 years ago. Hank From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 13:32:41 1994 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Thu, 19 May 94 12:32:41 +0100 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:02 +0700." <9405191049.AA06985@ncc.ripe.net> Message-ID: <9405191132.AA22990@dalkey.hea.ie> Hank I'm just back from RIPE-18, where I scribed the Local IR WG mtg. I'll have a draft minute on the list later today or tomorrow. In it you'll see that the group agreed to discuss the questions of funding of and charging by local IP registries asap, with a view to making a recommendation. So, thanks for getting things under way. Mike From GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net Thu May 19 14:32:01 1994 From: GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net (Geert Jan de Groot) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:32:01 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 MDT." <"survis.sur.509:19.04.94.10.23.37"@surfnet.nl> Message-ID: <9405191232.AA07816@ncc.ripe.net> On Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200 Erik-Jan Bos wrote: > As Last Resort IR for The Netherlands I received a request for address > space (one C network) from an individual. The person requesting address > space tells me he has several machines at home able to talk IP and he > wants to interconnect them. > > Since he has plans to connect his LAN at home to the Internet some day in > the future he asks for an official IP network number (which means RFC1597 > is of no help in this case). > > IMHO, this is a question which we will see in an increasingly frequency > in the near future. Think of what happens if IP functionality is built in > to Microsoft software... > > I'd like to know whether you have received requests like this before, > and how you aproached this issue, since I think "we all" should have a > common attitude in Europe (better: world-wide) on this. A couple of random thoughts: - If this person is who I think he is, then his current involvement in TCP/IP is Licensed Amateur Radio related. A class A network number (44.0.0.0) has been designated for this purpose on a worldwide scale. They also use a distributed addressing scheme. To find out the local IR in that case, ask the worldwide coordinator: Brian Kantor Please note that this organisation is very efficient in assigning address space because they assign *one* IP address per person in the default case (people can get more if they ask; most don't). The AMPRnet has been using classless routing, CIDR etc for some years now. (CB applications are *not* valid for network 44 because of strict AUP rules as defined by the government. I know that, at least in the Netherlands, CB persons have nicked network 27.0.0.0 for the same application, but this number has not been assigned to them) - If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem. 1597 might be useful after all.. No comments on the general case of individuals asking for IP address space. I hope that my ideas help in this specific case though. Geert Jan From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu May 19 15:09:59 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:09:59 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 14:32:01 MDT. <9405191232.AA07816@ncc.ripe.net> Message-ID: <9405191309.AA01614@reif.ripe.net> > Geert Jan de Groot writes: > - If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to > ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe > that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem. > 1597 might be useful after all.. This sums up my personal opinion. If they are not going to connect immediately, then let them use private address space and renumber their 3 hosts later. If they are going to connect immediately, let the service provider registry assign numbers. I know of cases where they subnet part of the SP space. Soon - when we have a classless allocation registry, this can even be registered. Problem solved. No? Daniel From bilse at EU.net Thu May 19 15:16:54 1994 From: bilse at EU.net (Per Gregers Bilse) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net> Ignoring for a minute that I don't work with local-ir stuff in any way or capacity, I find it odd the lengths ``we'' (Internet NICs, registries, providers) go to, to help and support people and organisations who don't want to play our game, ie connect to the global Internet, anyway. This is even more so, given the address space depletion (although opinions wrt this problem varies). Individuals or micro companies who want to connect a couple of PCs on a LAN can renumber the day they connect. Larger companies who clearly state that they have no intention of connecting, and want numbers for closed networks, don't need unique numbers (this has been discussed elsewhere recently). Medium size companies who intend to connect (later) -- no problem, of course they can get official numbers. But is it completely outrageous to consider unique/official IP numbers to be the property of the global, connected Internet? And categorically rule that they will only be issued to members of this crowd, ie those that actually (intend to) connect? "Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this, but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within, say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to renumber. Considering the "interesting" future ahead of us, when IP numbers become really scarce, I don't see any reason to dole them out right, left and center to people who don't intend to use them. Unless we want to start building the future market of IP numbers; I wonder what a /16 will sell for around the turn of the century. -- bilse +31 20 592 5109 (dir: 5110); fax +31 20 592 5163 ``We used to ! but now we @'' (jensen) From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu May 19 15:37:02 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:37:02 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 MDT. <199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net> Message-ID: <9405191337.AA01764@reif.ripe.net> > Per Gregers Bilse writes: > "Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this, > but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as > usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't > use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within, > say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may > be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the > original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to > renumber. Private interconnections between enterprises not necessarily via the Internet also need unique numbers. From erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl Thu May 19 15:57:16 1994 From: erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl (Erik-Jan Bos) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:09:59 +0200. Message-ID: <"survis.sur.061:19.04.94.13.57.19"@surfnet.nl> Daniel, > > Geert Jan de Groot writes: > > > - If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to > > ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe > > that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem. > > 1597 might be useful after all.. > > This sums up my personal opinion. Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent approach among all Local IRs. > If they are not going to connect immediately, then let them use private > address space and renumber their 3 hosts later. > > If they are going to connect immediately, let the service provider > registry assign numbers. Sure. > I know of cases where they subnet part of > the SP space. Soon - when we have a classless allocation registry, > this can even be registered. The world, now classless, might have /30s and /29s all over the place. I do not want to think of /32s. This gives us a neat "tool" to make sure that everybody has address space assigned to her or him that fits the needs. Looking into my cristal ball (sorry, I sound like somebody else :-) ), I see a world in which the bakery on the corner of the street has a brand new /28 assigned to his one-man company by a ISP he selected. After a few month the guy making bread discovers there is an ISP for the bakery branch in his city and he wants to switch over to the bakery-ISP. This ISP welcomes his new customer with open arms and announces this /28 to the Internet at large. Remember, this /28 is from the first ISP in this story. Think of what this will do to the efficiency of CIDR... Bottom line of this story is that there needs to be a mechanism in place that forces the bakery to renumber to a CIDR range of his new service provider. For the bakery with a /28 this is not too complex, but what about this large company with a /15? __ Erik-Jan. From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 22:24:22 1994 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 21:24:22 +0100 Subject: Draft minute of mtg yesterday Message-ID: <9405192024.AA24043@dalkey.hea.ie> D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T Minute of Local IR WG Meeting at RIPE-18, May 1994 X.Y Local IR Working Group (D Karrenberg) Chair: D Karrenberg Scribe: M Norris X.Y.1 Opening An agenda circulated beforehand was agreed. The minutes of the meeting held during RIPE-17 in January 1994 were agreed. X.Y.2 Election of New Chairman D Karrenberg explained why he had announced his resignation as chairman. The efficacy of the WG might be questioned given that the Director of the NCC presided over a group drawn from the membership of RIPE, which set the agenda of the NCC. In addition, the workload of the NCC was now so onerous that all other activities had to be reviewed. Following discussion, the meeting unanimously expressed its complete satisfaction in the chairmanship by D Karrenberg of the Local IR Working Group. The Group had found the close linkage with the NCC to be of great benefit, and that this had never impeded its work nor imposed any limitations on its freedom of action. The meeting reluctantly accepted the resignation of the chairman. M Norris agreed to act as chairman, with effect from the end of the meeting. X.Y.3 European Registry Report by the NCC D Karrenberg reported that, from experience, it may be that enterprise networks, such as those belonging to large multi- or trans-national organisations, needed their own IP registries. As a rule, such organisations did not get delegated address space. However, coordination between local and regional registries was important. X.Y.4 Reports of Significant Events at Local Registries Question: In light of renumbering caused by CIDR, what should be done with returned addresses? It was agreed that such addresses could be returned, and welcome, to any European IR. Such IRs would return addresses to the NCC. If the addresses could be aggregated, they would be re-used, otherwise they would be returned to IANA. Question: Will someone write a paper on why it is a good idea to return unused addresses? Some discussion, but no takers. It was agreed that incidents of note should be reported to the list and to the NCC, and not reported only at WG meetings. Incidents were reported of applications being rejected in Europe but accepted on re-application to other regional registries. The group expressed concern at the disparity in the criteria applied by RIPE and InterNIC registries. Action 18.1 D Karrenberg Convey RIPE's concern at this disparity to the InterNIC. X.Y.5 Standard IP Application Form There was a discussion of multiple applications to different registries by the same organisation, or by different components of the same organisation. It was agreed that the standard form should be revised to guard against such abuses. The following changes should be made: * Indicate that any statements made in the form could be used in consideration of future applications * Applicants should indicate their parent organisation and its assigned address space, if any * Applicants to state whether they had made any applications for IP addresses in Europe or elsewhere Action 18.2 NCC Draft new standard form in light of above recommendations for discussion on the list. X.Y.6 Default Range of AS Numbers D Karrenberg had asked IANA for a default range of AS numbers, but this had been refused. [ Yves, can you please fill in the text of the point you made here? ] [ I apologise for not minuting it properly. ] X.Y.7 Report from Local IR Workshop The workshop held before the start of RIPE-18 had been well attended, numbers exceeding those who had booked and the number of lunch equivalents. RFC1597, concerning the allocation of private IP addresses, was noted. Common errors with the administration of reverse DNS zones had been summarised. Action 18.3 NCC Investigate monthly publication of error files on reverse zone files, a la host count. X.Y.8 Funding of and Charging for Local Registry Service The meeting agreed that these were important issues and that the group should make recommendations as soon as possible. Action 18.4 M Norris Initiate discussion on the list and aim to summarise by way of a draft recommendation. X.Y.9 Assignment Statistics W Woeber and W Huber had suggested means of representing address space assignment status. This would be discussed on the list. From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 09:49:37 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:49:37 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 MDT. <"survis.sur.061:19.04.94.13.57.19"@surfnet.nl> Message-ID: <9405200749.AA02245@reif.ripe.net> > Erik-Jan Bos writes: > > Bottom line of this story is that there needs to be a mechanism in place > that forces the bakery to renumber to a CIDR range of his new service > provider. I don;t like the use of force. Persuasion is enough., Charge for routing announcements and charge a premium if they are out of block. > For the bakery with a /28 this is not too complex, but what > about this large company with a /15? They are not so much of a problem after all. A large hole resembles a big block, doesn;t it? From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 09:57:15 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:57:15 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 MDT. <"survis.sur.061:19.04.94.13.57.19"@surfnet.nl> Message-ID: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> > Erik-Jan Bos writes: > > This sums up my personal opinion. > > Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent > approach among all Local IRs. We will write something up next week. If someone else does before us we can use that! My proposal would read like: - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts of address space than 8 bits where possible - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts in the RIPE database when possible Rationale: Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up too much address space. Is this acceptable to all? Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. Daniel From nipper at xlink.net Fri May 20 10:19:13 1994 From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:19:13 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am Message-ID: <"xlink100.x.636:20.04.94.08.19.17"@xlink.net> Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > > > My proposal would read like: > > - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now > > - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect > - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only > > - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts > of address space than 8 bits where possible > > - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts > in the RIPE database when possible > > Rationale: > > Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up > too much address space. > > > > Is this acceptable to all? > Fully agree > Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles > inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. > > Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just > circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". > I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. > > Daniel > -- Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0 Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______ D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany From Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be Fri May 20 10:31:28 1994 From: Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be (Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:31:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am Message-ID: <9405200831.AA10981@mahler.belnet.be> Daniel Karrenberg wrote : > > > We will write something up next week. If someone else does before > us we can use that! > > My proposal would read like: > > - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now > > - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect > - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only > > - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts > of address space than 8 bits where possible > > - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts > in the RIPE database when possible > > Rationale: > > Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up > too much address space. > > > > Is this acceptable to all? YES > > Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles > inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. > > Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just > circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". > I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. I am in favour of publication because it is then clear that it is a general policy, and not just a register who want to give a hard time to a VSE... > > Daniel > Stephan > -- Stephan Biesbroeck Tel: +32(0)2-2383470 stephan at belnet.be Fax: +32(0)2-2315131 Service Support Team of the Belgian National Research Network, BELNET From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Fri May 20 10:50:10 1994 From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton) Date: Fri, 20 May 94 10:50:10 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405200850.AA10326@acrab25.ecrc> Fully agree with Hank here - we are seeing the same problems in Germany as someone somewhere has to finance all this. Either the service providers do one stop shopping at the local IR and/or TLD-NIC and/or we charge or rent ip numbers and domain name space etc. to induviduals. No other way to go in the long term. Same applies to RIPE but me and Daniel have had our arguments about this in the past offline. Thats another story. Dave From mark at demon.co.uk Fri May 20 12:08:42 1994 From: mark at demon.co.uk (mark at demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 11:08:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am Message-ID: <9405201108.aa12944@demon.demon.co.uk> According to Daniel Karrenberg.... > > My proposal would read like: > > - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now > > - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect > - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only > > - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts > of address space than 8 bits where possible > > - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts > in the RIPE database when possible > > Rationale: > > Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up > too much address space. > > > > Is this acceptable to all? Sounds very sensible. Demon would be happy to follow these guidelines. Regards, Mark. -- /\/\ark Turner Demon Systems / Demon Internet Home: mt at kram.org (PGP key available) 42 Hendon Lane, London Office: mark at demon.net (+44 81 3490063) N3 1TT, England *** IP level dialup Internet connectivity for a tenner a month! *** PGP server: email to pgp-public-keys at demon.co.uk with subject 'help' From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Fri May 20 13:48:39 1994 From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton) Date: Fri, 20 May 94 13:48:39 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405201148.AA10729@acrab25.ecrc> > > Erik-Jan Bos writes: > > > This sums up my personal opinion. > > > > Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent > > approach among all Local IRs. > >We will write something up next week. If someone else does before >us we can use that! > >My proposal would read like: > > - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now > > - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect > - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only > > - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts > of address space than 8 bits where possible > > - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts > in the RIPE database when possible > >Rationale: > > Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up > too much address space. > > > >Is this acceptable to all? YEP. > >Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles >inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. > >Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just >circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". >I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. Publish. >Daniel Dave From poole at eunet.ch Fri May 20 14:10:56 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 14:10:56 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am Message-ID: <199405201210.OAA29881@eunet.ch> I beg to differ with most of the opinions voiced up to now. I have big problems with Ripe rushing off and changing the rules yet another time with -no- convincing arguments and analysis that any significant problem will be solved by this change of policy. Before I would agree to a formal "sub-class C" allocation policy, I would like to see: - a study on how much address space will be actually saved by this change. Taking into account: - current available services from ISP's. For example a large number of ISP's already have "single address" dialup IP services where address are allocated out of ISP network numbers. - granularity of allocation. - loss of efficency due to the fact that most ISP's do not use CIDR capable routing protocols internally. - projected demand for address space for less than 32 hosts. This will require statistical information on company size etc. (I don't think the odd hobbyist with more than one machine is of such great concern.) - disussion of alternatives (new classes of Internet numbers etc.) and why they do not solve the problem. - a discussion on the operational pro's and con's on such an allocation policy, including administration. - a "rough consenus" between all parties that this is a good idea, this would at least include the IETF and commercial representatives of all major ISP's. As pointed out in the minutes of the local-ir meeting, there are already substantial differences in allocation policy between the European IR's and others, we cannot afford to embark on yet another Europe-only crusade. Simon From Bjorn.Eriksen at sunet.se Fri May 20 14:19:23 1994 From: Bjorn.Eriksen at sunet.se (Bjorn Eriksen) Date: Fri, 20 May 94 14:19:23 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <199405201219.OAA09310@sunic.sunet.se> >My proposal would read like: >.... >Is this acceptable to all? yes, and publish. --Bjorn From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 15:28:53 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 15:28:53 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 May 1994 14:10:56 MDT. <199405201210.OAA29881@eunet.ch> Message-ID: <9405201328.AA03305@reif.ripe.net> > poole at eunet.ch writes: > > I beg to differ with most of the opinions voiced up to now. I have > big problems with Ripe rushing off and changing the rules yet another > time with -no- convincing arguments and analysis that any significant > problem will be solved by this change of policy. Can you please point to other needless and unmotivated changes? Otherwise I will regard this paragraph as noise. > Before I would agree to a formal "sub-class C" allocation policy, > I would like to see: > > - a study on how much address space will be actually saved > by this change. If any address space can be saved and there are no ill effects this is not really a necessity. >Taking into account: > > - current available services from ISP's. For example > a large number of ISP's already have "single address" > dialup IP services where address are allocated out > of ISP network numbers. This is just a special case of doing what the proposal says. > - granularity of allocation. I don't understand what you mean exactly. Currently noone can assign anything smaller than 8 bits. > - loss of efficency due to the fact that most ISP's > do not use CIDR capable routing protocols internally. If it cannot be done it cannot be done. If it can be done it should be done. I do not understand what "loss of efficiency" means. If it is too ineficcient for whatever reason (which you do not discuss) then it cannot be done. The proposal just says that "last-resort" IRs will not assign address space and ISPs should do their best. Some will do better and some will do badly. > - projected demand for address space for less than > 32 hosts. This will require statistical information > on company size etc. This is shooting a fly with a 122mm gun. Projections can also be called "wild guesses". Any reliable projections in a fast developing market as ours are bound to be either very inaccurate or very short term. Several last-resort registries have experienced demands from individual users and/or very small companies. This is projection enough for me. > (I don't think the odd hobbyist > with more than one machine is of such great concern.) Your personal projection. I for one am quite sure that this case and the case of very small enterprises is all but odd. I see such requests daily and I am sure we see only a fraction of them at the NCC. Other evidence: the discussion about domain names for individuals. If there are only 1024 of these requests (very low estimate) to all EU last-resort registries in the next 12 months we can either assign them 18 bits of address space (4Bs or 1024Cs for old-timers) or nothing. > - disussion of alternatives (new classes of Internet numbers > etc.) and why they do not solve the problem. If you want to discuss an alternative, propose one. (BTW: the IPv4 Internet is going classless. A new "class" is going backwards.) > - a discussion on the operational pro's and con's on such an > allocation policy, including administration. Of course a wirtten up proposal will discuss some of this. But we are just in the stage of discussion. Name a few cons. > - a "rough consenus" between all parties that this is a good idea, > this would at least include the IETF, IETF is for engineering. If you insist I can raise the issue in the IETF cidrd group. I don't quite see the point though. > and commercial representatives > of all major ISP's. That is what we have RIPE for and in this case the local-ir WG. If your representatives there are not commercial enough, you have an internal communication problem. The differences in allocation policies between regional registries are being addressed and not part of this discussion. Daniel From poole at eunet.ch Fri May 20 16:05:45 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:05:45 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405201328.AA03305@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 03:28:53 pm Message-ID: <199405201405.QAA00912@eunet.ch> > > poole at eunet.ch writes: > > > > I beg to differ with most of the opinions voiced up to now. I have > > big problems with Ripe rushing off and changing the rules yet another > > time with -no- convincing arguments and analysis that any significant > > problem will be solved by this change of policy. > > Can you please point to other needless and unmotivated changes? > Otherwise I will regard this paragraph as noise. I didn't say that changes up to now have been unmotivated, however one of the the problems of local-ir's are that the criteria for address allocation in Europe have been continuosly changing and that this causes a significant ammount of pain every time. > > Before I would agree to a formal "sub-class C" allocation policy, > > I would like to see: > > > > - a study on how much address space will be actually saved > > by this change. > > If any address space can be saved and there are no ill effects this is > not really a necessity. Life tends not to be so simple, any such decision is a trade off between positive and negative affects. I would be quite willing to accept a significant burden for an order of magnitude gain in address space usage but not for a factor of two. To be able to make a sensible decision we do need the information. > >Taking into account: > > > > - current available services from ISP's. For example > > a large number of ISP's already have "single address" > > dialup IP services where address are allocated out > > of ISP network numbers. > > This is just a special case of doing what the proposal says. Yes, however this might -already- cover the major part of what this policy wants to regulate. > > - granularity of allocation. > > I don't understand what you mean exactly. Currently noone can assign > anything smaller than 8 bits. The efficiency of any "sub-class C" allocation policy will depend on what the recommend "chunk" size is and how that plays into the technical realisation (routing etc.). > > - loss of efficency due to the fact that most ISP's > > do not use CIDR capable routing protocols internally. > > If it cannot be done it cannot be done. If it can be done it should be > done. I do not understand what "loss of efficiency" means. If the ISP equipment is not CIDR aware, then the ISP will have no other choice than to allocate complete classful addresses to whatever it uses as routing equipment (support for variable length subnets plays in to this aswell). If it is > too ineficcient for whatever reason (which you do not discuss) then it > cannot be done. The proposal just says that "last-resort" IRs will not > assign address space and ISPs should do their best. Some will do better > and some will do badly. There are two different issues here: - last-resort IR's will not allocate address space for VSE's, I don't have any problems with this as long as it is coordinated internationally and not an Europe only decision. - allocation of address space for actually Internet connected entities. > > > - projected demand for address space for less than > > 32 hosts. This will require statistical information > > on company size etc. > > This is shooting a fly with a 122mm gun. > > Projections can also be called "wild guesses". Any reliable projections > in a fast developing market as ours are bound to be either very > inaccurate or very short term. Several last-resort registries have > experienced demands from individual users and/or very small companies. > This is projection enough for me. The numbers of companies per country and their sizes has nothing to do with the Internet per se. The assumptions can be made when we discuss how many will actually connect. > > (I don't think the odd hobbyist > > with more than one machine is of such great concern.) > > Your personal projection. > > I for one am quite sure that this case and the case of very small > enterprises is all but odd. I see such requests daily and I am sure we > see only a fraction of them at the NCC. Other evidence: the discussion > about domain names for individuals. If there are only 1024 of these > requests (very low estimate) to all EU last-resort registries in the > next 12 months we can either assign them 18 bits of address space (4Bs > or 1024Cs for old-timers) or nothing. As said above very likely such indvidual sites are already covered by single address allocations by ISP's. > > > - disussion of alternatives (new classes of Internet numbers > > etc.) and why they do not solve the problem. > > If you want to discuss an alternative, propose one. > > (BTW: the IPv4 Internet is going classless. A new "class" is going > backwards.) The IPv4 Internet is going classless at the ISP interconnect level, assuming anything else right now is very speculative. Simon From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Fri May 20 16:55:08 1994 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Fri, 20 May 94 15:55:08 +0100 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 May 94 09:57:15 +0200." <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> Message-ID: <9405201455.AA27824@dalkey.hea.ie> On Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:57:15 +0200 Daniel Karrenberg said: >My proposal would read like: > > - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now > The number may be even smaller. I can't remember what the commonly accepted figure is for the number of staff in a VSE, but SMEs (small-to-medium enterprised) usually range from 10 to 100 employees. I would say that anything with >16 hosts now is really an SME, not a VSE. > - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect > - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only > > - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts > of address space than 8 bits where possible > > - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts > in the RIPE database when possible > >Rationale: > > Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up > too much address space. > > > >Is this acceptable to all? > Yes. >Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles >inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. > >Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just >circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". >I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. > RIPE documents are normally recommendations anyway, but derive a lot of their benefit from being public. I say publish (and be praised ;-) >Daniel Mike From robert at dknet.dk Fri May 20 17:37:19 1994 From: robert at dknet.dk (Robert Martin-Legene) Date: Fri, 20 May 94 17:37:19 MET DST Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net>; from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 9:57 am Message-ID: <199405201537.AA20105@dkuug.dk> Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > >My proposal would read like: > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) RFC1597 I suspect. >Is this acceptable to all? Sounds fair to me. Although I foresee internal routing problems here. I suspect they can be solved with routing entries for each individual host (?). The local routing table would become quite big, but that is not so much of concern (yet? :-)) With time CIDR-aware software will be available. -- Robert Martin-Legene, = EUnet Denmark = DKnet, Fruebjergvej 3, DK-2100 Kobenhavn O, +45 39 17 99 00 From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Fri May 20 18:10:43 1994 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 17:10:43 +0100 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <0097EB8B.A2200CE0.4682@cc.univie.ac.at> Hank, >pay it. But when I recently posted in regards to our plans to charge >customers for IP address registration I got all sorts of flames. When while I don't want to join in flaming, I see some good reasons for people running a registry *now* for frowning at the financial procedures proposed or even applied unilaterally be some (only a very few?) Last Resort Registries. I'm definitely feeling worried when a Last-Resort-Registry, run by a Service Provider *upon it's own voluntary decision* starts charging for allocating addresses. I wonder whether there isn't some incentive (at least conceavably :-) to be quite generous... At the same time, running a Service-Provider Registry for an academic community, we are not able to suggest to our clientele that we are providing them withg a service that has a financial value after all... So, I'd really like to see this sorted out soon! And anything that is agreed on should equally fit the commercial ISP registries as well as the "not for profit" ones. Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Wilfried.Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Fri May 20 17:56:57 1994 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:56:57 +0100 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <0097EB89.B64919C0.4675@cc.univie.ac.at> Hi Daniel, = > Erik-Jan Bos writes: = > > This sums up my personal opinion. = > = > Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent = > approach among all Local IRs. = =We will write something up next week. If someone else does before =us we can use that! = =My proposal would read like: = = - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now Just to make sure that we think along the same lines: I'd strongly favour an approach where there is NO difference being made between private ("for personal use") and corporate/commercial applications... = - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs = = - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) = - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect = - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only = = - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts = of address space than 8 bits where possible = = - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts = in the RIPE database when possible = =Rationale: = = Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up = too much address space. = = = =Is this acceptable to all? = Good for me. =Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles =inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. = =Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just =circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". =I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. From the point of "open-ness" and information dissemination I'd agree to publish this, however, we have to aware of that these documents tend to float around for a long time, even after some cicles of update. BUT, if we start to publish the address assignment rules, any such document proposed IMHO has to cover many more aspects, for instance any financial implications we might come up with.... Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Wilfried.Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 18:13:03 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 18:13:03 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 May 1994 16:56:57 BST. <0097EB89.B64919C0.4675@cc.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <9405201613.AA03723@reif.ripe.net> > "Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet" writes: > > Just to make sure that we think along the same lines: I'd strongly > favour an approach where there is NO difference being made between > private ("for personal use") and corporate/commercial applications... We are in violent agreement. > From the point of "open-ness" and information dissemination I'd agree > to publish this, however, we have to aware of that these documents tend > to float around for a long time, even after some cicles of update. Fact of life. But if we publish them as ripe docuemnts there is always a way to find the most recent. > BUT, if we start to publish the address assignment rules, any such > document proposed IMHO has to cover many more aspects, for instance any > financial implications we might come up with.... I am in favour of publishing small docuemnts dealing with a single aspect rather than the big and complete one which will never get done. From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 18:18:03 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 18:18:03 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 May 1994 17:37:19 +0700. <199405201537.AA20105@dkuug.dk> Message-ID: <9405201618.AA03740@reif.ripe.net> > Robert Martin-Legene writes: > Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > > > >My proposal would read like: > > > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > > RFC1597 I suspect. Just a test whether people read it. > Sounds fair to me. Although I foresee internal routing problems here. > I suspect they can be solved with routing entries for each individual > host (?). > The local routing table would become quite big, but that is not so > much of concern (yet? :-)) With time CIDR-aware software will be > available. What you can do internally depends on the technology you use. I would suspect that you can subnet in your POPs so that customers connected to the same POP can share Cs. If you can't do that the story ends and you have to give customers Cs. But that is only for those who connect eventually and not for everyone who asks a last-resort registry. Daniel From bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk Fri May 20 17:32:13 1994 From: bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk (bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405201632.AA09151@buche> > while I don't want to join in flaming, I see some good reasons for > people running a registry *now* for frowning at the financial > procedures proposed or even applied unilaterally be some (only a very > few?) Last Resort Registries. I tend to agree with Wilfried. JANET originally offered to run the UK Last Resort registry because, as the national adademic & reserach network, we believed that it was in the interest of UK (and European) networking that someone undertook the job. We still feel this way, but it has to be said that its a lot of work, that it's not possible to justify to our funders that much effort is expended on this activity, and consequently that sometimes we find it difficult to provide the service level that we would like in terms of turnaround of requests, provision of advice etc. As things will get worse in this respect (as IP becomes more widespread), something will have to be done. Charging isn't necessarily bad -- it allows the service to be put on a proper, stable basis and most companies have no difficulty in understanding the concept of paying a small admin. fee for registration. However, I'd feel unhappy with unilateral action by individual registries -- there should be general agreement on the necessity. We'd probably give up running the UK Last Resort registry, rather than charge unilaterally, if it came to the point that we could no longer cope with current effort levels. So (although I didn't make the last RIPE IR group meeting, unfortunately) I'd support some serious discussion of this topic, to reach a consensus. One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life, costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.) If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the well known area of line provision! Could be an interesting discussion.... Bob Day From poole at eunet.ch Sat May 21 11:27:51 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch) Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <199405201537.AA20105@dkuug.dk> from "Robert Martin-Legene" at May 20, 94 05:37:19 pm Message-ID: <199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch> > > Sounds fair to me. Although I foresee internal routing problems here. > I suspect they can be solved with routing entries for each individual > host (?). > The local routing table would become quite big, but that is not so > much of concern (yet? :-)) With time CIDR-aware software will be > available. > Assuming we have CIDR-aware software, why should we use the class C address space for these small allocations? Wouldn't it be better to split up one class A (this would allow 4 million allocations of a 3 bit net)? My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system of: - computer manufactureres - networking equipment companies - consultants - literature that can't be ignored. My experience shows that address allocation works best when the applicant already knows what to expect. Since the above "information system" has barely caught up with subnetting and maybe a bit of CIDR, it's suicidal to change yet another aspect of allocation policy essentially in secret. If we go for some kind of CIDR'zed allocation of small nets, the policy should: - use a clearly identifiable address range (not the current class C's). - be widely published (make it a big event). Simon From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Sat May 21 19:27:35 1994 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 18:27:35 +0100 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <0097EC5F.894ECC40.4763@cc.univie.ac.at> >My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that >the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system >of: > > - computer manufactureres > > - networking equipment companies > > - consultants > > - literature From my experience the biggest challenges should be expected from categigory 3 and (to some extent, but considerably less) from category 4. Wilfried. From poole at eunet.ch Sat May 21 19:10:28 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch) Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 19:10:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <0097EC5F.894ECC40.4763@cc.univie.ac.at> from "Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet" at May 21, 94 06:27:35 pm Message-ID: <199405211710.TAA19485@eunet.ch> > > >My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that > >the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system > >of: > > > > - computer manufactureres > > > > - networking equipment companies > > > > - consultants > > > > - literature > > From my experience the biggest challenges should be expected from > categigory 3 and (to some extent, but considerably less) from > category 4. I would you categorize you as very optimistic :-), a large number of category one organisations don't even know that it's possible to subnet class C addresses. Simon From GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net Sun May 22 02:29:07 1994 From: GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net (Geert Jan de Groot) Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 02:29:07 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 MDT." <199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch> Message-ID: <9405220029.AA20659@belegen.ripe.net> On Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 +0200 (MET DST) poole at eunet.ch wrote: > Assuming we have CIDR-aware software, why should we use the class C > address space for these small allocations? Wouldn't it be better to > split up one class A (this would allow 4 million allocations of a 3 bit > net)? I see no reason why those VSE's cannot have address space from your current provider block. Instead of: 193.0.0.0/24 machine-100 company 193.0.1.0/24 machine-10 company 193.0.2.0/24 machine-10 company 193.0.3.0/24 machine-10 company 193.0.4.0/24 machine-10 company 193.0.5.0/24 machine-4 company you would get something like this: 193.0.0.0/24 machine-100 company 193.0.1.0/28 machine-10 company 193.0.1.16/28 machine-10 company 193.0.1.32/28 machine-10 company 193.0.1.48/28 machine-10 company 193.0.1.64/28 machine-4 company ... and use less than 2 C's instead of 6! I have seen this work at an ISP here on campus who uses a terminal server (which covers only one C or so) to connect to many customers who use leased lines. Chopping up a class A for this purpose means that each chunk (which then would be at a different ISP each) needs to be announced separately, which would break CIDR at large. Why do you want to use separate address space for that? (Intermezzo: you do bring up an interesting subject though - once we run out of the class C address space, we will probably need to chop up blocks of networks from a class A network just we have done now with 193.0.0.0/8 and 194.0.0.0/8. I hope that all equipment that routes to external networks is either classless or knows how to handle disjunct 'subnets' with different subnet masks correctly...) My personal interpretation of this all is that there are many l-IR's who agree that assigning a unique class C to each unconnected network of two PC's is a bad thing. If they don't connect, private address space is fine; once they connect, renumbering to fit in a ISP CIDR block is easy if you have just a few machines and not renumbering would cause the major routing table explosion which we all fear. Playing around with this leads to a few more interesting ideas. These are personal; butcher them down if you don't like them: - Maybe we should make a point that people who want address space 'so they can connect later' to ask them to make a choice of ISP first and only THEN get address space (from the provider registry, that is). If they have a small network, say up to 100 hosts or so, having them use private address space and renumber once they connect should not be so bad. - This would point more work to ISP-registries instead of the L-R registry. This brings down the work on the L-R registries (who do this for free, after all), and brings these costs to ISP registries (who might see this as 'customer service' and thus have justification why their IR-activities cost effort and money) - It makes CIDR work better! > My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that > the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system > of: > > - computer manufactureres > > - networking equipment companies > > - consultants > > - literature > > that can't be ignored. My experience shows that address allocation > works best when the applicant already knows what to expect. Since > the above "information system" has barely caught up with subnetting > and maybe a bit of CIDR, it's suicidal to change yet another aspect > of allocation policy essentially in secret. A large amount of the entities listed above doesn't even know about Internet commodities like DNS and security. This is, IMHO, an area of added value of the ISP. How many times did you have to explain about changing a network from using hosts files or Yellow Plague to DNS, and tell people how to close their network for external access? In the cases I have seen, the ISP is, apart from moving bits around, also the 'interface' to the Internet: providing consultancy, first contact point in case of connectivity problems, knowing where and how to file domain information, NACR's and the like. Assigning sub-class C's could be part of that. No customer-equipment changes are neccessary! I think assigning arbitrary size of network space instead of binary multiples of class C's is simply part of the evolution the Internet is going though. Geert Jan From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Sun May 22 11:27:10 1994 From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Sun, 22 May 94 11:27:10 IDT Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 May 1994 17:10:43 +0100 from Message-ID: <9405220838.AA20014@ncc.ripe.net> On Fri, 20 May 1994 17:10:43 +0100 you said: > while I don't want to join in flaming, I see some good reasons for > people running a registry *now* for frowning at the financial > procedures proposed or even applied unilaterally be some (only a very > few?) Last Resort Registries. > > I'm definitely feeling worried when a Last-Resort-Registry, run by a > Service Provider *upon it's own voluntary decision* starts charging for > allocating addresses. I wonder whether there isn't some incentive (at > least conceavably :-) to be quite generous... We told the IL commerical service providers that we may charge in the future. Each said that they could do it for free. We said great. Let us know when you are ready and we will *gladly* transfer over all co.il responsibility. Two weeks later we heard from them that when they sat down and figured in the machine cycles and the manpower that they couldn't do the service for free as they had thought initially but would have to charge for it. We still provide the service free of charge. We would like to conform (or in ISOish - harmonize) to whatever the overall majority feels should be done. If everyone in Europe says "do it free since that is the way it should be", we will do it for free. But in all fairness, if that is the decision to be made then I would like to see a table of all RIPE countries that provide free registry services with who provides the funding: a) government funded registry b) university funded registry c) country Internet consortium funded registry d) other Do people feel that such a table would be worthwhile to determine who is currently funding registry services in Europe today? Hank From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Sun May 22 11:38:48 1994 From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Sun, 22 May 94 11:38:48 IDT Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST from Message-ID: <9405220843.AA20037@ncc.ripe.net> On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said: >One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic >to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life, >costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be >whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with >customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a >situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than >their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.) >If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do >if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably >high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the >well known area of line provision! Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C. > >Could be an interesting discussion.... > >Bob Day Hank Nussbacher From pete at eunet.fi Sun May 22 11:37:25 1994 From: pete at eunet.fi (Petri Helenius) Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 12:37:25 +0300 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405220029.AA20659@belegen.ripe.net> References: <199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch> <9405220029.AA20659@belegen.ripe.net> Message-ID: <199405220937.AA03285@silver.eunet.fi> Geert Jan de Groot writes: > > Playing around with this leads to a few more interesting ideas. These > are personal; butcher them down if you don't like them: > - Maybe we should make a point that people who want address space > 'so they can connect later' to ask them to make a choice of ISP > first and only THEN get address space (from the provider registry, > that is). If they have a small network, say up to 100 hosts or so, > having them use private address space and renumber once they connect > should not be so bad. Agree fully but I think this should be announced from some more authorative entity than a local-ir. RIPE will do fine. At least if there is a way to prevent situation where the customer does not go to some ISP other than the one handling the last-resort-ir and gets an address there and later when he's about to connect, feels that he got bad service from the ISP/last- resort-registry and goes to the ISP he got the addresses from. The point is that the above works if RIPE enforces this policy on ISP registries and last-resort-registries. (on all you give address space) > - This would point more work to ISP-registries instead of the L-R registry. > This brings down the work on the L-R registries (who do this for free, > after all), and brings these costs to ISP registries (who might see this > as 'customer service' and thus have justification why their IR-activities > cost effort and money) > - It makes CIDR work better! > Agree with these two too. When we get a 'RIPE recommendation' that we can hand out to the applicants that apply for address space but are not planning to connect in immediate future ? Pete From poole at eunet.ch Sun May 22 22:52:54 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole) Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 22:52:54 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405220843.AA20037@ncc.ripe.net> from "Hank Nussbacher" at May 22, 94 11:38:48 am Message-ID: <199405222052.WAA27198@chsun.eunet.ch> > On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said: > >One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic > >to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life, > >costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be > >whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with > >customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a > >situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than > >their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.) A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses. > >If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do > >if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably > >high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the > >well known area of line provision! > > Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around > to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with > a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C. The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless, it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not going to make any sense at all). Simon From poole at eunet.ch Sun May 22 23:07:50 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole) Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 23:07:50 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405220838.AA20014@ncc.ripe.net> from "Hank Nussbacher" at May 22, 94 11:27:10 am Message-ID: <199405222107.XAA28846@chsun.eunet.ch> Hank, I feel you are really mixing up two issues: - DNS registration - IP registry of last resort It is really difficult to see where the large cost factor is in the first case (if I counted correctly co.il contains 91 domains, really peanuts from a resource usage point of view). In the second case, real personel costs -do- exist, since a lot of applicants will expect free consulting and will argue end- lessly about how much address space they need using up personel time (and nerves). Simon From nipper at xlink.net Sun May 22 23:10:43 1994 From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper) Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 23:10:43 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <199405222052.WAA27198@chsun.eunet.ch> from "Simon Poole" at May 22, 94 10:52:54 pm Message-ID: <"xlink100.x.532:22.04.94.21.10.48"@xlink.net> Simon Poole wrote: > > > > On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said: > > >One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic > > >to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life, > > >costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be > > >whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with > > >customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a > > >situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than > > >their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.) > > A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other > countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including > any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses. > I can't see this. Don't take it as buying but paying sort of tax for it. > > >If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do > > >if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably > > >high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the > > >well known area of line provision! > > > > Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around > > to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with > > a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C. > > The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless, > it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not > going to make any sense at all). > It should be *no* problem to do this for a 2 or 3-year period (one time for setup, recurrent for maintaining). This would give a "bill" for about $50 once in three years. > Simon -- Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0 Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______ D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany From poole at eunet.ch Mon May 23 00:41:08 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole) Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 00:41:08 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <"xlink100.x.532:22.04.94.21.10.48"@xlink.net> from "Arnold Nipper" at May 22, 94 11:10:43 pm Message-ID: <199405222241.AAA13535@chsun.eunet.ch> Arnold Nipper writes: > Simon Poole wrote: ... > > A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other > > countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including > > any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses. > > > > I can't see this. Don't take it as buying but paying sort of tax for it. If it's considered a lease or a purchase dosen't matter, only governments raise taxes. > > The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless, > > it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not > > going to make any sense at all). > > > > It should be *no* problem to do this for a 2 or 3-year period (one time for > setup, recurrent for maintaining). This would give a "bill" for about $50 once > in three years. Except that going to a system like this has significant implications in two ways: - the fact that you are now selling/leasing IP numbers has legal consequences (guarentees and liabilities), that you very likely will not be able to avoid (better never allocate an IP number twice :-)).* - currently IP number registration is very much "assign and forget", a significant amount of infrastructure and cost is involved if you regulary have to chase IP number owners down. Simon * very likely this already applies now, however at least I sleep better as long as we're not asking money for the service :-). From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Mon May 23 08:14:06 1994 From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Mon, 23 May 94 08:14:06 IDT Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 22 May 1994 23:07:50 +0200 (MET DST) from Message-ID: <9405230521.HA22995@nikhefh.nikhef.nl> On Sun, 22 May 1994 23:07:50 +0200 (MET DST) you said: > >Hank, I feel you are really mixing up two issues: > > - DNS registration > > - IP registry of last resort > >It is really difficult to see where the large cost factor is >in the first case (if I counted correctly co.il contains 91 >domains, really peanuts from a resource usage point of view). > >In the second case, real personel costs -do- exist, since a lot >of applicants will expect free consulting and will argue end- >lessly about how much address space they need using up personel >time (and nerves). > >Simon In my case it is the opposite. The large personnel costs are for DNS rather than for IP. Those that connect have no idea what DNS is, none whatsoever about bind, nameservice, primary and secondary nameservers, how to structure their own internal domain space, etc. I have had lots of Novell networks wanting connectivity and then you need to explain to them about LAN Workplace for DOS, LAN Workgroup or Netwire IP and how each fits into the DNS way of things. The personnel time is roughly 5:1 for DNS vs IP allocation in my country. Hank From bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk Mon May 23 09:54:44 1994 From: bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk (bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 23 May 94 09:54:44 BST Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405230854.AA09669@buche> > I can't see this. Don't take it as buying but paying sort of tax for it. Nope. As Simon says, governments raise taxes, not private organisations. If charging is to be run on a cost-recovery basis (and I can't myself see any desire to do otherwise -- we all need to ensure the things's funded but presumably don't see this as profit-making), the main costs are staff related -- processing requests, giving advice etc. I can see this as justifying a one-off fee for allocation, but there doesn't seem to be a reason for a maintenance charge. (And what do you do if a customer doesn't pay this? Reassign the number(s), with the knowledge that they're probably still being used?) Setting a "recommended" price is fine -- it's a sort of price regulation. But this would have to be high enough to cover the staff costs of those countries where salaries etc are relatively high -- generally north-west Europe. I still think there will be deviations, as some registries will find alternative funding, some will just do their own thing. As long as we don't have some silly idea of trying to enforce a uniform charge, I don't think it matters -- things will shake down, as the majority of companies will be more interested in applying to their local registry (easier to do, same language, etc) than saving a few ECUs. The main cause of people going to a non-local registry would surely be if the local one wasn't giving a good service, rather than because of price? Bob Day From bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk Mon May 23 14:11:24 1994 From: bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk (bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 23 May 94 14:11:24 BST Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405231311.AA09726@buche> > It would help the debate if, as early as possible, other > last resort registries could indicate their views, their > current practice and their funding methods. If recommendations > are to be made, they should be based on as wide a poll as > possible. For the record, the UK situation. Within JANET, we undertake two registry roles: 1. We assign numbers for those connecting to JANET. This is part of the general service we provide to customers connecting to JANET, and is effectively funded through the JANET connection charge and annual rental. Therefore we wouldn't unbundle a charge for network number assignment in these cases. 2. We're the NIC of last resort for the UK. This service is effectively unfunded -- we do it as part of the JANET registry activities. Our funding authorities in general think that doing this sort of thing is desirable (ie in the interests of networking in the UK), but (if we were to ask) wouldn't pay for it directly -- they'd expect us to fund it by charging those wanting numbers. Obviously, we don't bother asking, but the operation of this service is a constant drain, with the real possibility that we'll have to give it up (ie hand it back to the NCC) if it gets more onerous that at present. For information, I'd reckon that processing a "simple" request, billing etc would cost around 250 ECU. A more complex one, where there's a need to discuss the situation in detail with the applicant might cost 500 ECU, maybe more. With these sort of figures it'd probably be worth insisting on having the registration fee come with the application, rather than billing afterwards -- this should cut costs a bit. You'd still have to generate a VAT receipt, though. Bob From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Mon May 23 13:07:31 1994 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Mon, 23 May 94 12:07:31 +0100 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST." <9405201632.AA09151@buche> Message-ID: <9405231107.AA00232@dalkey.hea.ie> Bob and others have pointed to the dangers of unilateral decisions by last resort IRs to charge directly for their services. In this sense, a concerted approach is needed and RIPE should be able to offer recommendations here. It would help the debate if, as early as possible, other last resort registries could indicate their views, their current practice and their funding methods. If recommendations are to be made, they should be based on as wide a poll as possible. Cheers. Mike From GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net Mon May 23 21:43:43 1994 From: GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net (Geert Jan de Groot) Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 21:43:43 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 May 1994 14:11:24 -0000." <9405231311.AA09726@buche> Message-ID: <9405231943.AA00683@ncc.ripe.net> On Mon, 23 May 94 14:11:24 BST bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk wrote: > For information, I'd reckon that processing a "simple" request, billing etc > would cost around 250 ECU. A more complex one, where there's a need to > discuss the situation in detail with the applicant might cost 500 ECU, > maybe more. With these sort of figures it'd probably be worth insisting > on having the registration fee come with the application, rather than > billing afterwards -- this should cut costs a bit. You'd still have to > generate a VAT receipt, though. Here are some techniques we are using. You might find them useful to lower the workload of the last-resort IR's: 1. Giving advice on how to set up networks is added value for Internet Service Providers; I usually turn down those questions quite quickly 2. Try to minimise your work, eventually making more work for the requestor. Don't build an addressing plan to see if their application is valid; ask them to provide one. Don't accept if they are providing data their own way forcing you to transform; ask them to provide the data the way YOU want it (we do some calculations based on machine-[012] and subnet-[012] as a first estimation; jokers not providing this information see their application returned to them) Based on some ideas that came up during the local-ir WG and ideas we had earlier (which I forgot to bring up during the meeting - sorry), we probably want to change ripe-107 a little - it times out in a month anyway. Anybody else having hot ideas? 3. During last RIPE, I have heard several cry-for-help from some IR's who have customers that do not accept the rulings of the IR and cost quite a bit of effort convincing. I'm willing to help - these are 'difficult cases' and you pay my salary to do those, how much I hate them as well.... ;-) Personally I don't like the situation that we have to bill for IP numbers per se (it opens the way for big-$$$ company to apply for a B for their 300-host network), but billing for consultancy around the registration process seems much more suitable to me. Also, what happens if a company pays you 500 or even 1000 ECU, expecting you to give them a B, but their network does not justify assigning that much of address space? A case could be made for 'services not delivered' with nasty consequences as well... Geert Jan From poole at eunet.ch Mon May 23 22:13:04 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch) Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 22:13:04 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405231943.AA00683@ncc.ripe.net> from "Geert Jan de Groot" at May 23, 94 09:43:43 pm Message-ID: <199405232013.WAA05026@eunet.ch> > > Here are some techniques we are using. You might find them useful > to lower the workload of the last-resort IR's: As I've pointed out before, the real problem lies in expectations the people have with respect to address allocation. These expectations are formed -long- before they actually contact a local-IR. What we need are rules that are: - stable (do not change every 6 months). - are published (that does -not- mean an announcement of yet another Ripe document on a Ripe mailing list) and announced to a large audience. - have support in the whole Internet community (with other words: are the same in the US). I would not blame people that have applied for address space over the last three years for coming to the conclusion that the policy is essentially random. Simon From poole at eunet.ch Mon May 23 22:16:47 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch) Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 22:16:47 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405230521.HA22995@nikhefh.nikhef.nl> from "Hank Nussbacher" at May 23, 94 08:14:06 am Message-ID: <199405232016.WAA05064@eunet.ch> Hank writes: > In my case it is the opposite. The large personnel costs are for DNS rather > than for IP. Those that connect have no idea what DNS is, none whatsoever > about bind, nameservice, primary and secondary nameservers, how to structure > their own internal domain space, etc. I have had lots of Novell networks > wanting connectivity and then you need to explain to them about LAN > Workplace for DOS, LAN Workgroup or Netwire IP and how each fits into the > DNS way of things. The personnel time is roughly 5:1 for DNS vs IP > allocation in my country. I really don't see the need for the large amount of consulting in the case of DNS, give them a name and if they can't use it properly that is -really- their problem (this doesn't work in the case of IP addresses, since the size of the allocation has to be determined based on ther technical plans of the applicant). Simon From nipper at xlink.net Mon May 23 23:28:43 1994 From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper) Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:28:43 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <199405232016.WAA05064@eunet.ch> from "poole@eunet.ch" at May 23, 94 10:16:47 pm Message-ID: <"xlink100.x.457:23.04.94.21.28.50"@xlink.net> poole at eunet.ch wrote: > > > Hank writes: > > In my case it is the opposite. The large personnel costs are for DNS rather > > than for IP. Those that connect have no idea what DNS is, none whatsoever > > about bind, nameservice, primary and secondary nameservers, how to structure > > their own internal domain space, etc. I have had lots of Novell networks > > wanting connectivity and then you need to explain to them about LAN > > Workplace for DOS, LAN Workgroup or Netwire IP and how each fits into the > > DNS way of things. The personnel time is roughly 5:1 for DNS vs IP > > allocation in my country. > > I really don't see the need for the large amount of consulting in the > case of DNS, give them a name and if they can't use it properly that > is -really- their problem (this doesn't work in the case of IP addresses, Strongly disagree. Doing so DNS performance would really be bad. Think of all the ROOTs coming up ... > since the size of the allocation has to be determined based on ther > technical plans of the applicant). > We had lot of discussion about that within the DE-NIC steering-financing committee. We finally decided to give every one a free shot. If the applicant sent in a detailed technical plan justifying the requested address space, it's fine. Otherwise the templates are sent back with addresses where he/she may buy consultancy. > Simon -- Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0 Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______ D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 09:56:05 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:56:05 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 May 1994 23:28:43 MDT. <"xlink100.x.457:23.04.94.21.28.50"@xlink.net> Message-ID: <9405240756.AA00419@reif.ripe.net> > Arnold Nipper writes: > > We had lot of discussion about that within the DE-NIC steering-financing > committee. We finally decided to give every one a free shot. If the applica > nt > sent in a detailed technical plan justifying the requested address space, i > t's > fine. Otherwise the templates are sent back with addresses where he/she may > buy consultancy. Who gets on that list? From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 09:58:42 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:58:42 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 May 1994 22:16:47 MDT. <199405232016.WAA05064@eunet.ch> Message-ID: <9405240758.AA00431@reif.ripe.net> > poole at eunet.ch writes: > > I really don't see the need for the large amount of consulting in the > case of DNS, give them a name and if they can't use it properly that > is -really- their problem (this doesn't work in the case of IP addresses, > since the size of the allocation has to be determined based on ther > technical plans of the applicant). I agree with Simon (and disagree with Arnold). For a *registry* it is quite OK to give out a name and delegate it only if the servers for the zone are OK. This needs some checking which is work. But I would not advocate the registry to also do consulting. The ISP should do the consulting. This may mean that delegations to badly operated servers may be revoked. Interesting..... Daniel From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 10:10:44 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:10:44 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 May 1994 22:13:04 MDT. <199405232013.WAA05026@eunet.ch> Message-ID: <9405240810.AA00452@reif.ripe.net> > poole at eunet.ch writes: > > As I've pointed out before, the real problem lies in expectations > the people have with respect to address allocation. These expectations > are formed -long- before they actually contact a local-IR. > > What we need are rules that are: > > - stable (do not change every 6 months). I contest that the general rules are changing that quickly. We are refining bits as necessary but we do not change the general rules. > - are published (that does -not- mean an announcement > of yet another Ripe document on a Ripe mailing list) > and announced to a large audience. What can we do more than publish them as RIPE documents? We do not have the resources for PR and frankly I think it is not going to change much at all. A significant amount of requests is still received by SRI although the InterNIC has done quite some PR and there have been two different organisations doing it in the interim. > - have support in the whole Internet community (with > other words: are the same in the US).. We are working on that. But if we want consensus before doing anything, forget it. I strongly belive we should not be wasteful just because someone else is. Think globally, act locally. Of course I am also very open for the needs of *European* ISPs. We shouldn't damage our industry either. > I would not blame people that have applied for address space over > the last three years for coming to the conclusion that the policy > is essentially random. I have never had that complaint. Many people commented that it was getting more difficult to obtain address space. That is not random! Also everyone I talked to understood the reasons and did not object to the policy as such. Of course many objected to it being applied to themselves.... . From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 10:18:43 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:18:43 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 May 1994 22:52:54 MDT. <199405222052.WAA27198@chsun.eunet.ch> Message-ID: <9405240818.AA00493@reif.ripe.net> > poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole) writes: > > A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other > countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including > any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses. Stop it right there. There is no purchase involved. Once we talk about purchase and ownership we are doomed. No aggrgation, no reclamation, no leasing to refuce consumption. Erase those words from the discussion please. Now to Simon's remark: Where can I get a Swiss phone number in the Netherlands? I think we should not be overly concerned with this problem at the present time. > The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless, > it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not > going to make any sense at all). I support leasing of address space eventually. With all the problems involved. One idea that is feasible then is to lease small amounts of address space for longer times with advance payment. This gets around the small bills problem. Daniel From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 10:16:45 1994 From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton) Date: Tue, 24 May 94 10:16:45 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405240816.AA11760@acrab25.ecrc> > > Arnold Nipper writes: > > > > We had lot of discussion about that within the DE-NIC steering-financing > > committee. We finally decided to give every one a free shot. If the applica > > nt > > sent in a detailed technical plan justifying the requested address space, i > > t's > > fine. Otherwise the templates are sent back with addresses where he/she may > > buy consultancy. News to me... >Who gets on that list? Presumably a select few :-) Dave From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 10:32:50 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:32:50 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 MDT. <199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch> Message-ID: <9405240832.AA00549@reif.ripe.net> > poole at eunet.ch writes: > > If we go for some kind of CIDR'zed allocation of small nets, the > policy should: > > - use a clearly identifiable address range (not the current > class C's). Why? And how to do route aggregation? > - be widely published (make it a big event). Why? I think it would be much better to have something published widely that explained the registry system per se and not the specific details of allocation policy. We will have to start charging which will be yet another change. From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 10:47:31 1994 From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton) Date: Tue, 24 May 94 10:47:31 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405240847.AA11786@acrab25.ecrc> > > poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole) writes: > > > > A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other > > countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including > > any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses. > >Stop it right there. There is no purchase involved. Once we talk about >purchase and ownership we are doomed. No aggrgation, no reclamation, >no leasing to refuce consumption. Erase those words from the discussion >please. Yes - agreed. But then one is now faced with the problem of explaining. "Ahem - well remember that Class Bs we assigned you back in 1989 - well we'd now like to rent it to you for X ecu per annum - please transfer X or esle". >Now to Simon's remark: Where can I get a Swiss phone number in the >Netherlands? I think we should not be overly concerned with this >problem at the present time. Not so sure - currently one can always get a gsm phone in country a assuming one lives in country b and you don't like the tariffs in country b. yes - hypothetical perhaps and unlikely but... > > The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless, > > it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not > > going to make any sense at all). > >I support leasing of address space eventually. Me too but how are we going to explain this to people ? >With all the problems involved. >One idea that is feasible then is to lease small amounts of address >space for longer times with advance payment. This gets around the >small bills problem. Yes - that was my suggestion to DE-NIC (also for domain registration ala Hank's problem) but this was rejected as unworkable. If SPs can send out bills for 35KECU per month then why not also for renting address space and domain registration. Have we looked at the possibility of a routing charge ? >Daniel Dave From poole at eunet.ch Tue May 24 11:09:19 1994 From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 11:09:19 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405240832.AA00549@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 24, 94 10:32:50 am Message-ID: <199405240909.LAA22314@eunet.ch> > > > > poole at eunet.ch writes: > > > > If we go for some kind of CIDR'zed allocation of small nets, the > > policy should: > > > > - use a clearly identifiable address range (not the current > > class C's). > > Why? One of my nightmares is giving out a a sub-C allocation to a customer who later on, gets an external company to come in and install a couple of a new machines (don't forget we are talking about very small organisations with little man-power and perhaps little know-how). First reaction will be: "Ah, you've got a class C, you are using a funny subnet, but we can change that." Using a clearly identified address space that will -not- lead to confusion or will at least make people stop and think before changing things, would be a very good idea. > And how to do route aggregation? I don't think this would be any worse (or just as good) as a completly CIDR'zed class C address space, since these addresses would be provider specific there would be no fragmentation problems). [Note: I'm not convinced that this would actually work, but it is a logical step if we do claim that we are moving towards a classless IPv4 Internet] > > > - be widely published (make it a big event). > > Why? > I think it would be much better to have something published widely that > explained the registry system per se and not the specific details of > allocation policy. We will have to start charging which will be yet another > change. As I've pointed out before, the main problem is that the rules are not known, this does make them easier to change, however is otherwise counterproductive. A 1 page Ripe flyer explaining the current allocation rules and aims would be a good start. There's nothing stoping us from adding a note that address space will be charged for at one point in time. Simon From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 11:07:01 1994 From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton) Date: Tue, 24 May 94 11:07:01 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405240907.AA11818@acrab25.ecrc> >On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said: >>One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic >>to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life, >>costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be Yes - agreed Bob, we've already this problem in many pan-European projects. Trying to explain why overheads are different from PT to DE is not easy. >>whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with >>customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a >>situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than >>their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.) >>If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do >>if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably >>high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the >>well known area of line provision! In the case of IP numbers and domains one can sort of argue that a certain monopolistic type structure is required for technical reasons (cidr, tlds etc.) - how long this holds if we have competing pan-European or global service providers is crystal ball stuff. >Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around >to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with >a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C. Not possible Hank - I don't believe RIPE should try to regulate markets, assuming such a market were to emerge. But you're right - it'll play havoc with cidr if such a market does emerge before IPng gets widely implemented, available and installed. How is NSAP allocation done in other European countries ? I know that here in DE one obtains NSAP for around 32ecu per NSAP per year. Does this compare and is there some sort of international (european agreement on this) - I doubt it ? >>Could be an interesting discussion.... Indeed. >> >>Bob Day > >Hank Nussbacher Dave From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 12:31:14 1994 From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton) Date: Tue, 24 May 94 12:31:14 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <9405241031.AA11876@acrab25.ecrc> >is the decision to be made then I would like to see a table of all RIPE >countries that provide free registry services with who provides the >funding: > >a) government funded registry >b) university funded registry >c) country Internet consortium funded registry For DE it's model c above. >d) other > >Do people feel that such a table would be worthwhile to determine who >is currently funding registry services in Europe today? Yes - very good idea. >Hank Dave From huber at chx400.switch.ch Tue May 24 13:35:32 1994 From: huber at chx400.switch.ch (Willi Huber) Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 13:35:32 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: map of assigned networks Message-ID: <9405241135.AA03770@ncc.ripe.net> Hallo, prior to the past RIPE meeting I sent a (rather long) message onto this list about a 'graphical' representation of the assigned networks from the blocks 193/8 - 194/8. Nandor Horvath has asked me to make available the script that generated this output. Here it is. Make with it whatever you like. Willi Huber -------------- An example: netmap 193.5/16 0) { $mask *= 2; } $firstnet = int($firstnet / $mask) * $mask; $lastnet = $firstnet+$mask; print "\nnetmap: looking for networks "; &printnet($firstnet); print " <= network < "; &printnet($lastnet); print "\n\n"; open(INET,">/tmp/netmap.$$") || die "netmap: Couldn't open >/tmp/netmap.$$\n"; while (<>) { if (/\*in/) { chop; ($key,$value) = split(/\s+/,$_,2); if ($value =~ /-/) { ($value,$value2) = $value =~ /(\S+) - (\S+)/; &binnet($value); &binnet($value2); } else { &binnet($value); $value2 = $value; } if (($value >= $firstnet) && ($value < $lastnet)) { printf INET "%09d %09d\n",$value,$value2; } } } close INET; $lastplotted = $firstnet-1; open(SORTED,"sort /tmp/netmap.$$ |") || die "netmap: Couldn't open sort /tmp/netmap.$$ |\n"; while () { ($value,$value2) = split; &plot($value,$value2); } print "\n"; close SORTED; unlink("/tmp/netmap.$$"); exit; sub binnet { undef(@bytes); (@bytes) = split(/\./,$_[0]); $_[0] = ($bytes[0]*256+$bytes[1])*256+$bytes[2]; } sub printnet { local($i) = $_[0]; printf "%d.%d.%d", int($i / 0x10000), int($i / 0x100 % 0x100), $i % 0x100; } sub plot { local($v,$v2) = @_; if ($lastplotted >= $v) { return; } $lastplotted++; while ($lastplotted != $v) { &plotnet(".",$lastplotted); $lastplotted++; } &plotnet($c,$v); while ($v != $v2) { $v++; &plotnet($c,$v); } $lastplotted = $v2; if ($c eq "*") { $c = "#"; } else { $c = "*" } } sub plotnet { local($c,$i) = @_; if ($counter >= 64) { printf "\n%03d.%03d.%03d ", int($i / 0x10000), int($i / 0x100 % 0x100), $i % 0x100; $counter = 0; } $counter++; print $c; } From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Sun May 29 08:26:38 1994 From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Sun, 29 May 94 08:26:38 IDT Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 24 May 94 12:31:14 +0200 from Message-ID: <9405290528.AA08910@ncc.ripe.net> On Tue, 24 May 94 12:31:14 +0200 you said: >>is the decision to be made then I would like to see a table of all RIPE >>countries that provide free registry services with who provides the >>funding: >> >>a) government funded registry >>b) university funded registry >>c) country Internet consortium funded registry > >For DE it's model c above. > >>d) other >> >>Do people feel that such a table would be worthwhile to determine who >>is currently funding registry services in Europe today? > >Yes - very good idea. > >>Hank >Dave Ok. Plz send me your reply to the above and I will summerize to the list. Please indicate what region you manage. Thanks, Hank From bilse at EU.net Thu May 19 15:16:54 1994 From: bilse at EU.net (Per Gregers Bilse) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals Message-ID: <199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net> Ignoring for a minute that I don't work with local-ir stuff in any way or capacity, I find it odd the lengths ``we'' (Internet NICs, registries, providers) go to, to help and support people and organisations who don't want to play our game, ie connect to the global Internet, anyway. This is even more so, given the address space depletion (although opinions wrt this problem varies). Individuals or micro companies who want to connect a couple of PCs on a LAN can renumber the day they connect. Larger companies who clearly state that they have no intention of connecting, and want numbers for closed networks, don't need unique numbers (this has been discussed elsewhere recently). Medium size companies who intend to connect (later) -- no problem, of course they can get official numbers. But is it completely outrageous to consider unique/official IP numbers to be the property of the global, connected Internet? And categorically rule that they will only be issued to members of this crowd, ie those that actually (intend to) connect? "Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this, but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within, say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to renumber. Considering the "interesting" future ahead of us, when IP numbers become really scarce, I don't see any reason to dole them out right, left and center to people who don't intend to use them. Unless we want to start building the future market of IP numbers; I wonder what a /16 will sell for around the turn of the century. -- bilse +31 20 592 5109 (dir: 5110); fax +31 20 592 5163 ``We used to ! but now we @'' (jensen) From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu May 19 15:37:02 1994 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:37:02 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 MDT. <199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net> Message-ID: <9405191337.AA01764@reif.ripe.net> > Per Gregers Bilse writes: > "Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this, > but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as > usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't > use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within, > say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may > be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the > original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to > renumber. Private interconnections between enterprises not necessarily via the Internet also need unique numbers. From erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl Thu May 19 15:57:16 1994 From: erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl (Erik-Jan Bos) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 +0200 Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:09:59 +0200. Message-ID: <"survis.sur.061:19.04.94.13.57.19"@surfnet.nl> Daniel, > > Geert Jan de Groot writes: > > > - If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to > > ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe > > that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem. > > 1597 might be useful after all.. > > This sums up my personal opinion. Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent approach among all Local IRs. > If they are not going to connect immediately, then let them use private > address space and renumber their 3 hosts later. > > If they are going to connect immediately, let the service provider > registry assign numbers. Sure. > I know of cases where they subnet part of > the SP space. Soon - when we have a classless allocation registry, > this can even be registered. The world, now classless, might have /30s and /29s all over the place. I do not want to think of /32s. This gives us a neat "tool" to make sure that everybody has address space assigned to her or him that fits the needs. Looking into my cristal ball (sorry, I sound like somebody else :-) ), I see a world in which the bakery on the corner of the street has a brand new /28 assigned to his one-man company by a ISP he selected. After a few month the guy making bread discovers there is an ISP for the bakery branch in his city and he wants to switch over to the bakery-ISP. This ISP welcomes his new customer with open arms and announces this /28 to the Internet at large. Remember, this /28 is from the first ISP in this story. Think of what this will do to the efficiency of CIDR... Bottom line of this story is that there needs to be a mechanism in place that forces the bakery to renumber to a CIDR range of his new service provider. For the bakery with a /28 this is not too complex, but what about this large company with a /15? __ Erik-Jan. From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 22:24:22 1994 From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris) Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 21:24:22 +0100 Subject: Draft minute of mtg yesterday Message-ID: <9405192024.AA24043@dalkey.hea.ie> D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T Minute of Local IR WG Meeting at RIPE-18, May 1994 X.Y Local IR Working Group (D Karrenberg) Chair: D Karrenberg Scribe: M Norris X.Y.1 Opening An agenda circulated beforehand was agreed. The minutes of the meeting held during RIPE-17 in January 1994 were agreed. X.Y.2 Election of New Chairman D Karrenberg explained why he had announced his resignation as chairman. The efficacy of the WG might be questioned given that the Director of the NCC presided over a group drawn from the membership of RIPE, which set the agenda of the NCC. In addition, the workload of the NCC was now so onerous that all other activities had to be reviewed. Following discussion, the meeting unanimously expressed its complete satisfaction in the chairmanship by D Karrenberg of the Local IR Working Group. The Group had found the close linkage with the NCC to be of great benefit, and that this had never impeded its work nor imposed any limitations on its freedom of action. The meeting reluctantly accepted the resignation of the chairman. M Norris agreed to act as chairman, with effect from the end of the meeting. X.Y.3 European Registry Report by the NCC D Karrenberg reported that, from experience, it may be that enterprise networks, such as those belonging to large multi- or trans-national organisations, needed their own IP registries. As a rule, such organisations did not get delegated address space. However, coordination between local and regional registries was important. X.Y.4 Reports of Significant Events at Local Registries Question: In light of renumbering caused by CIDR, what should be done with returned addresses? It was agreed that such addresses could be returned, and welcome, to any European IR. Such IRs would return addresses to the NCC. If the addresses could be aggregated, they would be re-used, otherwise they would be returned to IANA. Question: Will someone write a paper on why it is a good idea to return unused addresses? Some discussion, but no takers. It was agreed that incidents of note should be reported to the list and to the NCC, and not reported only at WG meetings. Incidents were reported of applications being rejected in Europe but accepted on re-application to other regional registries. The group expressed concern at the disparity in the criteria applied by RIPE and InterNIC registries. Action 18.1 D Karrenberg Convey RIPE's concern at this disparity to the InterNIC. X.Y.5 Standard IP Application Form There was a discussion of multiple applications to different registries by the same organisation, or by different components of the same organisation. It was agreed that the standard form should be revised to guard against such abuses. The following changes should be made: * Indicate that any statements made in the form could be used in consideration of future applications * Applicants should indicate their parent organisation and its assigned address space, if any * Applicants to state whether they had made any applications for IP addresses in Europe or elsewhere Action 18.2 NCC Draft new standard form in light of above recommendations for discussion on the list. X.Y.6 Default Range of AS Numbers D Karrenberg had asked IANA for a default range of AS numbers, but this had been refused. [ Yves, can you please fill in the text of the point you made here? ] [ I apologise for not minuting it properly. ] X.Y.7 Report from Local IR Workshop The workshop held before the start of RIPE-18 had been well attended, numbers exceeding those who had booked and the number of lunch equivalents. RFC1597, concerning the allocation of private IP addresses, was noted. Common errors with the administration of reverse DNS zones had been summarised. Action 18.3 NCC Investigate monthly publication of error files on reverse zone files, a la host count. X.Y.8 Funding of and Charging for Local Registry Service The meeting agreed that these were important issues and that the group should make recommendations as soon as possible. Action 18.4 M Norris Initiate discussion on the list and aim to summarise by way of a draft recommendation. X.Y.9 Assignment Statistics W Woeber and W Huber had suggested means of representing address space assignment status. This would be discussed on the list. From nipper at xlink.net Fri May 20 10:19:13 1994 From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:19:13 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am Message-ID: <"xlink100.x.636:20.04.94.08.19.17"@xlink.net> Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > > > My proposal would read like: > > - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now > > - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect > - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only > > - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts > of address space than 8 bits where possible > > - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts > in the RIPE database when possible > > Rationale: > > Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up > too much address space. > > > > Is this acceptable to all? > Fully agree > Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles > inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. > > Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just > circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". > I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. > > Daniel > -- Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0 Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______ D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany From Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be Fri May 20 10:31:28 1994 From: Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be (Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:31:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Address space for individuals In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am Message-ID: <9405200831.AA10981@mahler.belnet.be> Daniel Karrenberg wrote : > > > We will write something up next week. If someone else does before > us we can use that! > > My proposal would read like: > > - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now > > - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs > > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697) > - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect > - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only > > - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts > of address space than 8 bits where possible > > - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts > in the RIPE database when possible > > Rationale: > > Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up > too much address space. > > > > Is this acceptable to all? YES > > Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles > inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless. > > Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just > circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations". > I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations. I am in favour of publication because it is then clear that it is a general policy, and not just a register who want to give a hard time to a VSE... > > Daniel > Stephan > -- Stephan Biesbroeck Tel: +32(0)2-2383470 stephan at belnet.be Fax: +32(0)2-2315131 Service Support Team of the Belgian National Research Network, BELNET